Expired race seats for PCA DE?
09-02-2016 | 11:59 AM
#16
WRONGLY ACCUSED!
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It amazes me that when I go to a DE event the only people who are wearing race suits are the people who also race. People who only drive DE are worried about looking like posers if they wear a race suit but that is just stupid thinking.
09-02-2016 | 12:06 PM
#17
Race Car
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From: GOD's waiting room. <br> SoFla
Interesting... I just bough some expired harnesses specifically for drivers ed. This is the first that I am hearing that you can't use and expired harness?
Its not on the tech forms in Chicago PCA, and don't know if anyone actually checks...
Bought some new inbox Schroth harnesses that are 6 years old. I feel completely comfortable using them, they look like new, never exposed to UV light...
I always thought that in date belts and seats were only required for pca racing, NOT hpde?
Its not on the tech forms in Chicago PCA, and don't know if anyone actually checks...
Bought some new inbox Schroth harnesses that are 6 years old. I feel completely comfortable using them, they look like new, never exposed to UV light...
I always thought that in date belts and seats were only required for pca racing, NOT hpde?
I don't see anything (here) about dates on the harness in the pca
I have seat back brace and expired fia seats, and probably expired harnesses.
nothing I've seen on a tech sheet about harness dates either.
-so this rule is only for some clubs?
09-02-2016 | 12:11 PM
#18
Three Wheelin'
Joined: Dec 2012
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From: SF Bay Area
Or, you guys could run with the literally dozens of other safe, enjoyable groups that organize track events and don't have such ridiculous rules. The complaints about rules and PCA are never ending. I've literally never heard a single person complain about Hooked on Driving rules, and their events are just as safe and fun (more so even because you don't have to worry about showing up and not being able to drive because of some stupid technicality in your equipment.)
09-02-2016 | 12:34 PM
#19
Drifting
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 3,242
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From: Merrick, Long Island NY (Jeff)
Or, you guys could run with the literally dozens of other safe, enjoyable groups that organize track events and don't have such ridiculous rules. The complaints about rules and PCA are never ending. I've literally never heard a single person complain about Hooked on Driving rules, and their events are just as safe and fun (more so even because you don't have to worry about showing up and not being able to drive because of some stupid technicality in your equipment.)
09-02-2016 | 12:51 PM
#20
WRONGLY ACCUSED!
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From: PCA Gulag
Or, you guys could run with the literally dozens of other safe, enjoyable groups that organize track events and don't have such ridiculous rules. The complaints about rules and PCA are never ending. I've literally never heard a single person complain about Hooked on Driving rules, and their events are just as safe and fun (more so even because you don't have to worry about showing up and not being able to drive because of some stupid technicality in your equipment.)
The only time I have witnessed a driver being booted from a PCA DE event was when he showed up with almost no discernible material left on his front brake pads. Most people are given a warning to correct an issue for the next event.
+1
09-02-2016 | 01:40 PM
#21
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From: racine, wisconsin
From the Chicago Region PCA for DE's:
SEAT BELTS: Novice, Green, & Yellow may run with stock seats and belts.
White Group 5 or 6-point harness with proper race seat recommended, must have CDI approval.
Black Group requires a 5 or 6-point harness with proper race seat, rollover protection, and CDI approval.
All belts securely anchored, Metal-to-metal, with large diameter washers on both sides of floor mounting holes.
SFI/FIA approved arm restraints required for All Open Cars.
Harness and Seats must be equipped the “same” for Driver and Passenger side
III. Harness Rule:
PCA Chicago Region has adopted the following rules pertaining to harness belts, race seats and rollover protection for participants in all
Chicago Region Drivers’ Education events (DE) effective January 1, 2008.
Yellow, Green and Novice groups may run with stock seats and belts
White group recommends a 5 or 6-point harness with proper race seat* and rollover protection.
Black group requires a 5 or 6-point harness with proper race seat* and must be equipped at a minimum with a roll bar**.
White and Black Run Groups also require Chief Driving Instructor (CDI) approval.
* The race seat is required to have proper routing holes for the harness as supplied by the seat manufacturer for the shoulder and antisubmarine
straps. Single piece race seats recommended. Race seats that have reclining articulation are approved for DE only.
**A bolt in or welded in roll bar is recommended. Roll bars must meet PCA Club Racing Specifications and must be covered with closed cell
foam padding in any place where a helmet could come in contact with the bar.
The above safety rule change was developed in response to PCA National’s harness recommendations approved in 2007 as follows:
Harness Systems: If the participant chooses to install a 5 or 6 point driving harness (four point systems are not safe and therefore not
allowed) several changes to the automobile must be made to create a safe occupant restraint system. Harnesses must include an
antisubmarine strap and be mounted in an approved manner consistent with the manufacturer’s instructions. The Harness system must be
used in conjunction with a seat which has the supplied routing holes for the shoulder and anti-submarine belts. All pieces of the restraint
system must be installed in accordance with the manufacturer’s instructions.
This means that a seat is required to have the proper routing holes for the harness as supplied by the seat manufacturer for the shoulder and
anti-submarine straps. The shoulder straps should be mounted at 90 degrees to the axis of your spine or at most 40 degrees down from
horizontal. Because the addition of the harness system means that the occupants are fastened upright in the vehicle, a properly padded roll
bar or roll cage is strongly encouraged to complete the SYSTEM. The use of one without the other may result in an unsafe environment and
is not a COMPLETE SYSTEM. In order to have a COMPLETE SYSTEM, a properly padded roll bar or roll cage and an approved (SFI or
FIA) Head and Neck Restraint System (HANS) device are strongly encouraged and highly recommended.
The changes we have adopted allow the driver to make the choice whether to install a harness or not. If participating in DE as a novice,
green or yellow group driver at any of our Chicago events, stock lap belts are acceptable.
If your proficiency allows, and you wish to progress to the faster White or Black group, Chief Driving Instructor approval is required.
Harness/Race Seat and Rollover protection is highly recommended for White group and required for the Black group.
National’s DE safety standards also require equal restraints for student and instructor.
Equal Restraints: Both student and instructor shall have the same restraint system. All vehicles must be equipped with a properly installed
lap and shoulder restraint system.
If you wish to have an instructor ride with you, or instruct a student in your car, both shall have the same restraint system. If you have
installed a harness and race seat in the driver’s position but the stock seat and lap belt remain in the passenger side, the driver would have
to use the stock lap belt (instead of the harness) and run in the Green or Yellow group when instructing or being instructed.
PCA National’s DE standards is found at:
http://www.pca.org/drivers-education-minimium-standards
SEAT BELTS: Novice, Green, & Yellow may run with stock seats and belts.
White Group 5 or 6-point harness with proper race seat recommended, must have CDI approval.
Black Group requires a 5 or 6-point harness with proper race seat, rollover protection, and CDI approval.
All belts securely anchored, Metal-to-metal, with large diameter washers on both sides of floor mounting holes.
SFI/FIA approved arm restraints required for All Open Cars.
Harness and Seats must be equipped the “same” for Driver and Passenger side
III. Harness Rule:
PCA Chicago Region has adopted the following rules pertaining to harness belts, race seats and rollover protection for participants in all
Chicago Region Drivers’ Education events (DE) effective January 1, 2008.
Yellow, Green and Novice groups may run with stock seats and belts
White group recommends a 5 or 6-point harness with proper race seat* and rollover protection.
Black group requires a 5 or 6-point harness with proper race seat* and must be equipped at a minimum with a roll bar**.
White and Black Run Groups also require Chief Driving Instructor (CDI) approval.
* The race seat is required to have proper routing holes for the harness as supplied by the seat manufacturer for the shoulder and antisubmarine
straps. Single piece race seats recommended. Race seats that have reclining articulation are approved for DE only.
**A bolt in or welded in roll bar is recommended. Roll bars must meet PCA Club Racing Specifications and must be covered with closed cell
foam padding in any place where a helmet could come in contact with the bar.
The above safety rule change was developed in response to PCA National’s harness recommendations approved in 2007 as follows:
Harness Systems: If the participant chooses to install a 5 or 6 point driving harness (four point systems are not safe and therefore not
allowed) several changes to the automobile must be made to create a safe occupant restraint system. Harnesses must include an
antisubmarine strap and be mounted in an approved manner consistent with the manufacturer’s instructions. The Harness system must be
used in conjunction with a seat which has the supplied routing holes for the shoulder and anti-submarine belts. All pieces of the restraint
system must be installed in accordance with the manufacturer’s instructions.
This means that a seat is required to have the proper routing holes for the harness as supplied by the seat manufacturer for the shoulder and
anti-submarine straps. The shoulder straps should be mounted at 90 degrees to the axis of your spine or at most 40 degrees down from
horizontal. Because the addition of the harness system means that the occupants are fastened upright in the vehicle, a properly padded roll
bar or roll cage is strongly encouraged to complete the SYSTEM. The use of one without the other may result in an unsafe environment and
is not a COMPLETE SYSTEM. In order to have a COMPLETE SYSTEM, a properly padded roll bar or roll cage and an approved (SFI or
FIA) Head and Neck Restraint System (HANS) device are strongly encouraged and highly recommended.
The changes we have adopted allow the driver to make the choice whether to install a harness or not. If participating in DE as a novice,
green or yellow group driver at any of our Chicago events, stock lap belts are acceptable.
If your proficiency allows, and you wish to progress to the faster White or Black group, Chief Driving Instructor approval is required.
Harness/Race Seat and Rollover protection is highly recommended for White group and required for the Black group.
National’s DE safety standards also require equal restraints for student and instructor.
Equal Restraints: Both student and instructor shall have the same restraint system. All vehicles must be equipped with a properly installed
lap and shoulder restraint system.
If you wish to have an instructor ride with you, or instruct a student in your car, both shall have the same restraint system. If you have
installed a harness and race seat in the driver’s position but the stock seat and lap belt remain in the passenger side, the driver would have
to use the stock lap belt (instead of the harness) and run in the Green or Yellow group when instructing or being instructed.
PCA National’s DE standards is found at:
http://www.pca.org/drivers-education-minimium-standards
For myself I am a novice, just wanted to be as safe as possible so installing a rollbar, seat, and harness...
If I stay with this, and progress I will get a new seats, harness, fire suppression, etc..
So in the beginners group, Chicago PCA, is an "in date harness" required? Not a big deal if it as, as they aren't that expensive. Just trying to figure it out before mounting...
With an out of date seat, do you need a back brace or no for beginners HPDE?
09-02-2016 | 03:27 PM
#22
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I have seen that. Doesn't seem to comment on whether or not the seat or harness is in date, or did I miss it? It comments of certain standards for the higher race groups...
For myself I am a novice, just wanted to be as safe as possible so installing a rollbar, seat, and harness...
If I stay with this, and progress I will get a new seats, harness, fire suppression, etc..
So in the beginners group, Chicago PCA, is an "in date harness" required? Not a big deal if it as, as they aren't that expensive. Just trying to figure it out before mounting...
With an out of date seat, do you need a back brace or no for beginners HPDE?
For myself I am a novice, just wanted to be as safe as possible so installing a rollbar, seat, and harness...
If I stay with this, and progress I will get a new seats, harness, fire suppression, etc..
So in the beginners group, Chicago PCA, is an "in date harness" required? Not a big deal if it as, as they aren't that expensive. Just trying to figure it out before mounting...
With an out of date seat, do you need a back brace or no for beginners HPDE?
PCA cannot lessen the min stds, they can only enhance them. From the min stds link:
Due to UV degradation and wear, the harness webbing must be replaced every five years.
One way to accomplish compliance is by the date tag.
09-02-2016 | 03:52 PM
#23
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 544
Likes: 2
From: racine, wisconsin
, new harness it is...Slightly off track, but is there any evidence that a more expensive harness (such as a schroth, 400$+) is better than a less expensive, yet certified harness?
I see certified harnesses from $150-600... Any safety difference, or are they simply more comfortable?
Wish I could say I have an unlimited budget, but it just ain't so...
09-02-2016 | 06:22 PM
#24
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From: Montreal, QC
Somewhat sorry for starting this - was not looking for a 'right kerfuffle' $100 helmet/what's your brain worth discussion.
I am not looking to run ratty harnesses or broken seats - my car is over-maintained by most any standard, no reasonable expense spared - just don't want to get surprised attending an event with UCR or other NE PCA region and have an issue with minty yet technically date-expired gear like a seat.
BTW - I plan to keep my belts current.
Cheers
Matt
I am not looking to run ratty harnesses or broken seats - my car is over-maintained by most any standard, no reasonable expense spared - just don't want to get surprised attending an event with UCR or other NE PCA region and have an issue with minty yet technically date-expired gear like a seat.
BTW - I plan to keep my belts current.
Cheers
Matt
09-02-2016 | 06:48 PM
#25
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From: saratoga, ca
suits for racers but shorts for DE?
stock skinny lap belts are ok, and so are 30 year old seats, but if you have a racing seat it needs to be 5 years old . racing belts? same thing.
whats next, making sure tires are less than 6 years old too?
We all know the objective, but i dont think a beginner in DE is going that fast, or much faster than he does on the street, so stock stuff , with a helmet, is a good idea. the logic is that as we go faster, and get better, the chance of a wreck goes up.(but usually, there are lots of wrecks in the beginner groups), so that logic goes out the window... maybe its about speed? no, because you can have a racer in a spec miata running a lot slower top speed wise to a DE guy in his new C7 corvette.
I don't have the answers, but i think in DE, i don;t think you should have more than a helmet and any stock stuff. any aftermarket gear shouldn't need an expiration limit like race cars.
Its a good debate, but how far do you go with DE to make them safe, but not burden to the point where they wont show up. do belts or seats really need to expire? how about an inspection? i think that rule is for race cars that might be stored in the sun for 5 years.. Yes, if you have that car, replace the harnesses every 5 years for DE'ing or racing. But for most DE cars, do we have to match racing car standards? I personally don't think so.. And if you do, where does it end. All cars would need fire systems, kill switches, suits harnesses, etc regardless of race or DE? After alll, fire, impact, etc damage and crash effect doesnt know "whether its a DE or a race" , right?
09-02-2016 | 07:41 PM
#26
The Penguin King
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Ok then , new harness it is...
Slightly off track, but is there any evidence that a more expensive harness (such as a schroth, 400$+) is better than a less expensive, yet certified harness?
I see certified harnesses from $150-600... Any safety difference, or are they simply more comfortable?
Wish I could say I have an unlimited budget, but it just ain't so...
, new harness it is...Slightly off track, but is there any evidence that a more expensive harness (such as a schroth, 400$+) is better than a less expensive, yet certified harness?
I see certified harnesses from $150-600... Any safety difference, or are they simply more comfortable?
Wish I could say I have an unlimited budget, but it just ain't so...
09-02-2016 | 07:48 PM
#27
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Guess some regions check, I suppose many don't.
Anyone care to chime in on the specific NE PCA regions that run Mosport, Palmer, LCMT, the Glen [UCR? NER? Other Zone 1 events?] - is this something that gets checked or is part of a tech sheet?
Same question for belts, actually.
Looking to avoid surprises/plan accordingly.
Cheers
Matt
Anyone care to chime in on the specific NE PCA regions that run Mosport, Palmer, LCMT, the Glen [UCR? NER? Other Zone 1 events?] - is this something that gets checked or is part of a tech sheet?
Same question for belts, actually.
Looking to avoid surprises/plan accordingly.
Cheers
Matt
seats no, exceptions are where the seat was obviously modified,
09-02-2016 | 07:50 PM
#28
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I've never driven with Hooked on Driving but what you posted is probably the worst advertisement for a driving group I can think of. How is it safer if they have lesser safety standards?
The only time I have witnessed a driver being booted from a PCA DE event was when he showed up with almost no discernible material left on his front brake pads. Most people are given a warning to correct an issue for the next event.
+1
The only time I have witnessed a driver being booted from a PCA DE event was when he showed up with almost no discernible material left on his front brake pads. Most people are given a warning to correct an issue for the next event.
+1
09-02-2016 | 08:03 PM
#29
Three Wheelin'
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 1,299
Likes: 19
From: SF Bay Area
I've never driven with Hooked on Driving but what you posted is probably the worst advertisement for a driving group I can think of. How is it safer if they have lesser safety standards?
The only time I have witnessed a driver being booted from a PCA DE event was when he showed up with almost no discernible material left on his front brake pads. Most people are given a warning to correct an issue for the next event.
+1
The only time I have witnessed a driver being booted from a PCA DE event was when he showed up with almost no discernible material left on his front brake pads. Most people are given a warning to correct an issue for the next event.
+1
What data do you have to show the PCA is safer? Perhaps the implication that you are safer because of strict rules actually leads to more reckless driving?
You shouldn't imply that strict rules with no basis in fact produce better results.
09-02-2016 | 08:14 PM
#30
Drifting
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 3,242
Likes: 78
From: Merrick, Long Island NY (Jeff)
So then you open the pandora's box, right
suits for racers but shorts for DE?
stock skinny lap belts are ok, and so are 30 year old seats, but if you have a racing seat it needs to be 5 years old . racing belts? same thing.
whats next, making sure tires are less than 6 years old too?
We all know the objective, but i dont think a beginner in DE is going that fast, or much faster than he does on the street, so stock stuff , with a helmet, is a good idea. the logic is that as we go faster, and get better, the chance of a wreck goes up.(but usually, there are lots of wrecks in the beginner groups), so that logic goes out the window... maybe its about speed? no, because you can have a racer in a spec miata running a lot slower top speed wise to a DE guy in his new C7 corvette.
I don't have the answers, but i think in DE, i don;t think you should have more than a helmet and any stock stuff. any aftermarket gear shouldn't need an expiration limit like race cars.
Its a good debate, but how far do you go with DE to make them safe, but not burden to the point where they wont show up. do belts or seats really need to expire? how about an inspection? i think that rule is for race cars that might be stored in the sun for 5 years.. Yes, if you have that car, replace the harnesses every 5 years for DE'ing or racing. But for most DE cars, do we have to match racing car standards? I personally don't think so.. And if you do, where does it end. All cars would need fire systems, kill switches, suits harnesses, etc regardless of race or DE? After alll, fire, impact, etc damage and crash effect doesnt know "whether its a DE or a race" , right?
suits for racers but shorts for DE?
stock skinny lap belts are ok, and so are 30 year old seats, but if you have a racing seat it needs to be 5 years old . racing belts? same thing.
whats next, making sure tires are less than 6 years old too?
We all know the objective, but i dont think a beginner in DE is going that fast, or much faster than he does on the street, so stock stuff , with a helmet, is a good idea. the logic is that as we go faster, and get better, the chance of a wreck goes up.(but usually, there are lots of wrecks in the beginner groups), so that logic goes out the window... maybe its about speed? no, because you can have a racer in a spec miata running a lot slower top speed wise to a DE guy in his new C7 corvette.
I don't have the answers, but i think in DE, i don;t think you should have more than a helmet and any stock stuff. any aftermarket gear shouldn't need an expiration limit like race cars.
Its a good debate, but how far do you go with DE to make them safe, but not burden to the point where they wont show up. do belts or seats really need to expire? how about an inspection? i think that rule is for race cars that might be stored in the sun for 5 years.. Yes, if you have that car, replace the harnesses every 5 years for DE'ing or racing. But for most DE cars, do we have to match racing car standards? I personally don't think so.. And if you do, where does it end. All cars would need fire systems, kill switches, suits harnesses, etc regardless of race or DE? After alll, fire, impact, etc damage and crash effect doesnt know "whether its a DE or a race" , right?