Okey dokey, Mark. It's not like I do this for a living full-time or anything.

 

3 more to go.

 

That's fine Dave... it's just i race more at laguna than most any driver in the world, so i have a lot of laps there. That was the ONLY race where that happened and by far the worst set of fronts ever used. you have to understand then, if what you say is true, there would be just ONE lap where this characteristic was seen in 20 years of visiting this track, where this happened ? (and there isnt.)
I have rain races, street tire'd races, and races where ive pushed over the edge on those same turns and havent seen the effects of ONLY that race on video.

did you see the picture of the hand position of the race where those tires were not on the car. totally different. why is that?
again, i get paid , as you do to help folks with these kinds of questions, I dont make a living at it, but it doesnt mean my advice is any less valuable. If a car is set up bad, its set up bad. there is only so much you can do with driving around it. I appreciate the help and interest, and thought this would be a topic that most can relate too as well. Pushy cars are no fun and there are all sorts of things you can do as long as the tires are not cooked as mine were. the point of posting , was to see what others would do in the area of tuning to try and fight these effects, even if the tires were cooked. so far , as long as im not on the bumpstops, Im left with rear swaybar tighten. (i cant go any looser with the front swaybar, or the rear wheel will spin under power). also there is some shock settings , but again, they wont effect steady state cornering push.

i only used that video to ask the question because it was an extreme condition. back to the real question, im trying to loosen up the car a little and interested in ideas to do so.. so far , this group has given me a few ideas. I stilll want to hear of bump steer correction stories and their effects.

 

The best part of Mark's kind offer to listen to the thoughts any putative internet commenter might have about this situation is the unspoken but assuredly valid guarantee that any such comments, if posted, will receive, completely free of charge, five paragraphs or more explaining how wrong they are, why they are wrong and an expression of interest in any other thoughts any other future commenters might have, which will be wrong. As will be explained in detail thereafter, assuredly.

 

We'll get to 12 pages, soon enough...

Mark, your track familiarity has nothing to do with your handling problem, so let go of that, please. I know a dozen fellow SBRS instructors that have multiple times more laps than you at MRLS... So what?

You state that you are interested in ideas, but you have nothing but anecdotal suspension travel observations. Besides, you can run out of suspension travel BEFORE you run out of shock travel...

Have you measured, entered the suspension mounting dimensions and run the kinematics through Wm Mitchell's WinGeo3 or equivalent to even plot what is happening with camber curves and establish roll centers, hence roll couple?

Have you done a simple bump steer calculation using flat plates and dial indicators after removing your springs and moving the suspension through the full range of motion?

Have you EVER had shock pots and collected data that would allow you to review motion, plot roll rate front and rear, plot pitch changes, splitter height and rake?

All this is conjecture and guesses until you present data...

And I won't even get into your bankrupt idea of "tuning the car" on old, worn out tires. That's just bush league and not anything a serious racer or even DE driver would do.

Sheesh...

DTMiller, I'm waiting for that, should be incoming soon.

 

Werd.

And he keeps mentioning hand position. Where did I mention hand position? I mentioned driving style.

Oh well. As the line in Cool Hand Luke said, some men you just can't reach.

 

'

I would argue that my track knowledge and experience at MLSR is very relevant and can stack up p to anyone you know, as well knowing as ways around the track. the relevance is in the consistency and the occurrence we are looking at. Number of laps driven vs racing in sanction events, is like comparing a racer to a cab driver. its not the laps driven, its what you are doing in those laps.

Anyway, not to digress.

good points about acquiring data. I agree, like many grass root racers, we lack a lot of the high techs i sh equip to get the data. video to actually see what is happening is valuable, aowed on the rear suspension. im sure i can cobble something up for the front. ..

Yes, ive done the motion ratios and camber change measurements up to the bump stops.

I haven't used the win geo3 program to put in the data, but ill look into that

yes, i agree.... i know im not ON the bump stops, but im in them. and yes, that little extra spring rate could be hurting me... good point. I think i might take them off or cut them down and see if that helps, as i am probably running into them to some level on the high g loading turns. I guess the first easy to do step would just to raise the car and see what happens. If the bump stops are causing the issues, that will be apparent quickly, as was suggested by folks here and the Spec mustang racers. So that is an easy first step.

 

It was an indication of the push being gone one day and present the next.
you know this.. but somehow its you that cant be reached.
and the reason i bring that up, is the style didnt change. the speeds were even faster, yet the push (indicated by the "hand position....i.e. more steering angle on at the apex of the turn) was grossly different.

You and i need to meet at high plains raceway..... and as a line in Top Gun said, "Your ego is writing checks, your body just cant cash!"

 

It's funny, at the track, among friends and guys that always are there to help, we have these conversations all the time. you might say you want to help, but if you are trying to self promote or put down the person asking the question, that isnt friendly nor helpful. so far, the only real advice has come from Scott, to stiffen the rear bar if possible to change a push or increase over-steer. (wasnt even part of this discussion)
Any comments i make regarding my situation are not to disagree but to clarify the conditions. I think any reasonable man would take those conditions ive listed as vary valid and applicable.
so ask yourself on the next post you make..... are you a friend, trying to help, or just trying to self promote? and then, after you think about that..... post away!

 

Peter,

I also question the last time, if ever, those shocks have been rebuilt.

 

Wow. I've seen your vids and even seen you on the track. You are not as good as you think you are......

 

really? .. and ive seen you come from not knowing which way was forward, sititng in the paddock scratching your head, and actually spinning the car around pretty well. I think my performances in the car speak for themselves. I dont think you know too many that can take a car this old with the HP/weight that it has and run the times I run. The only thing i can add to that, is my ability to play well with others out there. those that have been racing with me over the past 18 years, know this to be important too!

that"s what i like about racing... it allows those that talk and those that do, to go head to head and compete. Anytime you want to race against me in some kind of equal car, let me know, ill make it happen!

 

I am not the one telling everyone how great I am......

But: Not knowing which way is forward? Scratching my head? You must have been watching someone else.

I road raced motorcycles for many years. I had over 2000 laps around Thunderhill and Sears Point, over 1500 laps around Buttonwillow, and over 1000 laps around Laguna Seca before I ever drove my race car at those tracks.

I knew which way I was going and I wasn't scratching my head.

 

Hey, if you cant take the mud, don't fling it... but yes.... you were floppy around the track when you first started.
Again, i appreciate the help, don't go personal on me.
now, I'm not telling anyone anything other than the experience, and the consistency alone discounts the one day review of the push from '06.

by the way, how is that 4th to 2nd downshift treating you... any increased sychro wear?

 

You realized that was discussed on page 1 and you said no, impossible. That's what makes these threads ridiculous.