Mark,

A couple of thoughts on this:
1) I don't think this is a good idea for even good intermediate students. I don't teach this until the driver has a lot of experience and outstanding car control. It's dangerous and will lead to pinch oversteer and a spin.
2) You seem to like an earlier apex, which, again, probably explains a lot of your understeer issues.
3) an earlier apex results in a later car rotation, not earlier. A late apex requires an early rotation.

 

+1

 

welll, i should clarify.... i do it with me instructing in the car... that way, it just buys time to slow down if they bit off more than they can chew. ive been in a few and seen countless over speed entries that didnt end well for the drivers. with me in the car, knowing the speed the car CAN turn at, i can advise and have them brake straight and chew up a lot of aspahlt to slow down vs late APEX with no margin for error. but your right, it can have disadvatages for begninners too, but even those that i have shown this too, seem to have a tendancy to over slow and which keeps them safe ... again, its not every turn, just a few.
actually the early apex yes, can cause an earlier rotation. if you count the rotation at the point at wich the car is turning , and its already completed part of the turn before the late apex will begin rotation (albeit at a lesser radius, and speed). there are trade offs, and its why I dont do it every where. many turns, i do not. the push( the bad one)showed itself everywhere. it was a chassis balance issue.
going back to the videos.. the later video with the better tires, and most all laps at laguna, shows early apex at turn 2, 5, 7. late apex at 3, 4, 9 10, 11. normal apex at 6 and 1.

 

Its why i teach and you don't. Ive been doing this longer than you have had your little car and maybe a bunch of your bikes. its something that has kept my students and myself safe both beginner and advanced.

The entire point is , if you think about turn 2 at laguna for example. late apex turn in at too high of speed (mistake 1) causes the driver to force the turn and spin or go into the dirt. two choices.... with late apex, mistake 1, causes a too high speed entry, but there is more distance to slow down because there is more distance available. i don't teach it for all turns, but i do advise on a few and it seems to keep everyone safe. I've seen so many mistakes, the most common is too high of speed at entry when the student decides to make turn in.. this technique solves the problem and makes it safer from what i have seen. if you see otherwise, share your experience. i can show countless video of his saving students cars from getting dirty or worse.

 

I'm shocked that mark thinks others are wrong about an issue. So weird. Like spotting a unicorn riding a leprechaun into battle against the loch ness monster.

 

Mark, excuse me if I misunderstood, but are you advocating and defending teaching early apexing to beginning and intermediate DE students?

Please clarify. Thanks.

 

Why not teach lines that work better for particular corner?

 

i have many different levels of instruction. when they start to push the envelope and im in the car, i like a little safer line. we go a little slower with the school line... im not driving.. they are.... its my job to keep them safe and I do a good job with that. manly selfish, i care more about me, than them?
again, its not all turns, only a few and only to the ones that can absorb and take advantage of the technique.

its not poor braking, its mistake in timing. if they are too hot and threshold braking, turn 2 at laguna can be a problem.. i dont let the beginning students to get anywhere near threshold braking, and the advanced ones are the ones that im worried about. if they get it wrong, while im in the car it means off roading and i dont want that.

anyway , its a tough discussion here. everyone here is an expert. its not every student or client, or every car or turn. until you ride with me, there is a method here and it works so dont judge.

 

Ive done this for quite a bit longer than you and its not something that is done EVERY turn, but a few and it is designed to give more runway, NOT less. if you think its dangerous, think again and you probably dont understand what im actually advocating or coaching.

yes... thank you. and thats the impious for doing so. some turns are best early, some are better late. some drivers can handle it and some cannot. part of my value is seeing the difference.

Absolutely not. im advocating a line through several different turns that may range from early to late. this depends on , but not limited to, driver experience, the turn, the car, the conditions and the goals of the session.

this is not all turns , but a select few. its one a lot of first timers have issues with , going later seems to work better and provide more safety margin.

In the case in question , turn 2 for example, i like a little earlier apex for most. it gives more run out if they enter a little too hot. less experienced drivers can be shown the effects of their mistake much safer than if they were late apexing. the experienced racers can make gains through the turn, or familiarity of the car's behavior, when its off line as well.

My most important concern is for safety and to provide a foundation they can practice and build on.

 

So you are saying that the school line (the late apex line) is less safe than the early apex line?

 

How do you teach beginning students threshold braking then?

Mark, I would encourage you here to be very careful how you phrase things. Your earlier post came across to me and others that you were advocating an early apex for beginners. You quote above implies you don't teach beginners threshold braking - do you really mean you don't let beginners threshold brake at T2 at Laguna? Words matter.

Nevertheless, beginners shouldn't be regularly braking too late if they are listening to their instructor. There may be things you do to mitigate risk to stay on track when a student just blows it, but I wouldn't call that early apex training. I also would not stay on a track with a novice that just doesn't brake when told after 2-3 turns - at that point it is time for a hot pit discussion.

I wouldn't say everyone here is an expert, including myself, but there are a couple of pros, a good number of well experienced guys (lots more than me), and I do ride right seat with about 3 students a month. We aren't all wrong.

-Mike

 

yes, i agree.. its tough to have this conversation over this medium. there are plenty of way to teach threashold braking without , putting them or the cars at risk. and yes, there have been guys. (usually the novices with the hot cars) and i let them air it out on the straights, but no threashold baking drills I always tell them, there is nothing they can do to impress me so dont!
i have only one guy that scared me and i know the early warning signs. usually, its the hot cars and the guy with a few sessions under his belt.

so, its not that you, or anyone is wrong for the criticizing, but you might not have all the information. ive coached at a pretty high level in a bunch of different sports. somethings ive taught, are not found in the mainstream books, but might get you a full athletic scholarship to UCLA!


It can be.... again, thats where i come in... .... ever see a guy off in the dirt at turn 2 at laguna or turn 1 a t-hill? what im saying is that an early apex can reduce the chance of a problem, if you know how to take advantage of the angles. Not all drivers, not all turns, not all levels, (mostly more experienced, but also some of each.

 

It is sometime, turn 2 or 6 sonoma and turn 3 t-hill for example.

 

I've always associated the term "squaring off a corner" as one way of dealing with a double apex turn. You early apex the first part of the corner, move out on a straighter line towards a certain point and then 's-t' the car back to clip the 2nd apex and out to corner exit. Square turning a normal single apex turn would generally be slower in my opinion.

 

Yes, so why not teach it? The same way, all the time. Pick an arbitrarily early braking point and tickle the ABS (or actually GET the tires to chirp, but not lock).

Mark, there is a reason why Skip Barber's curriculum is laid out the way it is, and why threshold braking skill execution is weighted heavy and done early on.

As far as the second observation goes, this is not some secret sauce, this is not a skill that you or anyone else has a proprietary lock on, and there are tried and tested optimal (and provable by objectively derived data) skill executions.

This idea that your system has no system is disturbing, to say the least.