1st time taking Porsche 991 C4S to the track
05-28-2015, 05:55 PM
#1
1st time taking Porsche 991 C4S to the track
I posted before about doing the exotic driving experience. Now I'm going to bring my own car to the track for the 1st time, which is a 991 C4S 7MT.
With the exotic driving I kept the cars in full auto, so I'm a little nervous about shifting with my own car at these high speeds, especially with downshifting. Do you need to do heel toe downshifts?
I'm also not sure how the all wheel drive system will come into play here.
Anything else I should think of before the big day? It's a little different with your own car
With the exotic driving I kept the cars in full auto, so I'm a little nervous about shifting with my own car at these high speeds, especially with downshifting. Do you need to do heel toe downshifts?
I'm also not sure how the all wheel drive system will come into play here.
Anything else I should think of before the big day? It's a little different with your own car
05-28-2015, 06:04 PM
#2
Do you have the synchro rev match feature ? If you did I would recommend using it for your first time on track.
As for heel toe; well if you don't have synchro match I wouldn't recommend trying very hard to learn heel toe first time on track. Maybe keep it in a higher gear than normal. You will still fly by most people on track in your car with the high corner speeds it will have and pure power/weight advantage. I'd focus more on feeling very comfortable with the speed, passing, being passed, taking all the apexs correctly, being smooth on all inputs, and then I'd move to more advanced stuff like heel toe and trail brake.
Think about it this way; if some fast guy passes you in his Miata you might get a hurt sense of pride. But you are in group one most likely, where no one should be giving anyone crap unless they are being dangerous. You are there to learn.
Where as if you were faster than everyone but a huge jerk and dangerously barely keeping the car together, you would most definitely 100% be the laughingstock of the instructors and higher level students of hpde.
So with those two possibilities you want to be the first! A good example is about a month ago I was at tws and some guy brought a very fast 991 gt3. He flew past everyone non stop, but had insane offs and would pass people on the inside corner of a very fast sweeper in a group that was not open passing, and was not allowing passes in that zone even with a point by. In fact, he almost caused a lot of people with less capable cars to have offs due to being forced to change their line mid turn.
Don't be that guy ever. I think he was probably somewhat experienced as he was flying, but he was still a huge douche and the running joke of everyone else out there. The goal is to have friends at the end of the day!
As for heel toe; well if you don't have synchro match I wouldn't recommend trying very hard to learn heel toe first time on track. Maybe keep it in a higher gear than normal. You will still fly by most people on track in your car with the high corner speeds it will have and pure power/weight advantage. I'd focus more on feeling very comfortable with the speed, passing, being passed, taking all the apexs correctly, being smooth on all inputs, and then I'd move to more advanced stuff like heel toe and trail brake.
Think about it this way; if some fast guy passes you in his Miata you might get a hurt sense of pride. But you are in group one most likely, where no one should be giving anyone crap unless they are being dangerous. You are there to learn.
Where as if you were faster than everyone but a huge jerk and dangerously barely keeping the car together, you would most definitely 100% be the laughingstock of the instructors and higher level students of hpde.
So with those two possibilities you want to be the first! A good example is about a month ago I was at tws and some guy brought a very fast 991 gt3. He flew past everyone non stop, but had insane offs and would pass people on the inside corner of a very fast sweeper in a group that was not open passing, and was not allowing passes in that zone even with a point by. In fact, he almost caused a lot of people with less capable cars to have offs due to being forced to change their line mid turn.
Don't be that guy ever. I think he was probably somewhat experienced as he was flying, but he was still a huge douche and the running joke of everyone else out there. The goal is to have friends at the end of the day!
05-28-2015, 06:45 PM
#3
Do you have the synchro rev match feature ? If you did I would recommend using it for your first time on track.
As for heel toe; well if you don't have synchro match I wouldn't recommend trying very hard to learn heel toe first time on track. Maybe keep it in a higher gear than normal. You will still fly by most people on track in your car with the high corner speeds it will have and pure power/weight advantage. I'd focus more on feeling very comfortable with the speed, passing, being passed, taking all the apexs correctly, being smooth on all inputs, and then I'd move to more advanced stuff like heel toe and trail brake.
Think about it this way; if some fast guy passes you in his Miata you might get a hurt sense of pride. But you are in group one most likely, where no one should be giving anyone crap unless they are being dangerous. You are there to learn.
Where as if you were faster than everyone but a huge jerk and dangerously barely keeping the car together, you would most definitely 100% be the laughingstock of the instructors and higher level students of hpde.
So with those two possibilities you want to be the first! A good example is about a month ago I was at tws and some guy brought a very fast 991 gt3. He flew past everyone non stop, but had insane offs and would pass people on the inside corner of a very fast sweeper in a group that was not open passing, and was not allowing passes in that zone even with a point by. In fact, he almost caused a lot of people with less capable cars to have offs due to being forced to change their line mid turn.
Don't be that guy ever. I think he was probably somewhat experienced as he was flying, but he was still a huge douche and the running joke of everyone else out there. The goal is to have friends at the end of the day!
As for heel toe; well if you don't have synchro match I wouldn't recommend trying very hard to learn heel toe first time on track. Maybe keep it in a higher gear than normal. You will still fly by most people on track in your car with the high corner speeds it will have and pure power/weight advantage. I'd focus more on feeling very comfortable with the speed, passing, being passed, taking all the apexs correctly, being smooth on all inputs, and then I'd move to more advanced stuff like heel toe and trail brake.
Think about it this way; if some fast guy passes you in his Miata you might get a hurt sense of pride. But you are in group one most likely, where no one should be giving anyone crap unless they are being dangerous. You are there to learn.
Where as if you were faster than everyone but a huge jerk and dangerously barely keeping the car together, you would most definitely 100% be the laughingstock of the instructors and higher level students of hpde.
So with those two possibilities you want to be the first! A good example is about a month ago I was at tws and some guy brought a very fast 991 gt3. He flew past everyone non stop, but had insane offs and would pass people on the inside corner of a very fast sweeper in a group that was not open passing, and was not allowing passes in that zone even with a point by. In fact, he almost caused a lot of people with less capable cars to have offs due to being forced to change their line mid turn.
Don't be that guy ever. I think he was probably somewhat experienced as he was flying, but he was still a huge douche and the running joke of everyone else out there. The goal is to have friends at the end of the day!
You brought up another good point, which is that I'll be on the track with other beginners like me that don't know what they're doing. When I drove before there were only 1 other car and it was spaced out enough I never saw it.
So now that I think about it I'm pretty nervous about having to watch for other cars and even think about passing/being passed. What's the correct way to do it?
Where I live I see a lot of very fast cars on a daily basis, so I'm not sure I'll even be one of the most powerful cars on the track, but I know the 911 is a great handling car so I'm really looking forward to learning how it feels there.
05-28-2015, 07:08 PM
#4
I don't have sport chrono with rev matching or PDCC. I did get sport PASM, plus the "S" includes some other performance features that are optional on the base 911.
You brought up another good point, which is that I'll be on the track with other beginners like me that don't know what they're doing. When I drove before there were only 1 other car and it was spaced out enough I never saw it.
So now that I think about it I'm pretty nervous about having to watch for other cars and even think about passing/being passed. What's the correct way to do it?
Where I live I see a lot of very fast cars on a daily basis, so I'm not sure I'll even be one of the most powerful cars on the track, but I know the 911 is a great handling car so I'm really looking forward to learning how it feels there.
You brought up another good point, which is that I'll be on the track with other beginners like me that don't know what they're doing. When I drove before there were only 1 other car and it was spaced out enough I never saw it.
So now that I think about it I'm pretty nervous about having to watch for other cars and even think about passing/being passed. What's the correct way to do it?
Where I live I see a lot of very fast cars on a daily basis, so I'm not sure I'll even be one of the most powerful cars on the track, but I know the 911 is a great handling car so I'm really looking forward to learning how it feels there.
Your event organizers will tell you the correct etiquette for passing. Usually you POINT out the window with your finger perpendicular to the car to allow the person behind you by. You only point on safe places to pass. This is mainly straightaways. So no, don't point while entering a hairpin turn where they might "dive bomb" you and cause an accident for example.
Just relax and listen to your instructor and don't get worried about your performance. I promise you, no one that is good at driving will be "judging" you or anything stupid like that. Group 1 is for beginners! Everyone realizes this. Have fun!!
**almost forgot. Leave the electronic aids on they are incredible. Slow in fast out of turns. Get consistent at apexs then slowly add speed. Four wheel drive for you means even more traction.
Last edited by Alexandrius; 05-28-2015 at 07:28 PM.
05-28-2015, 07:58 PM
#5
You are running with an organization that will have in in-car instructor in your car, right? If so, then you'll be fine. If not, find another event that will.
Last edited by MFGJR; 05-28-2015 at 09:17 PM.
05-28-2015, 08:11 PM
#6
Rennlist Member
It's a great skill to master. Go to your nearest freeway that has two exits in close proximity. Enter the freeway and run it up to third then blip and down to second and then blip down to first. Exit and come back in the opposite direction and repeat the blips. Continue in this circle for an hour or so and you'll get the hang of it. The track is different, however, as you'll be braking harder which means your brake pedal will be deeper and the throttle easier to reach.
One must do is a brake flush as the fluid is hygroscopic (i.e., it absorbs water). If there's enough, it'll flash when hot causing loss of brake power. You do not want this. I wouldn't do a HPDE if a tech wasn't required. Go to PCA's website and read all about them.
No matter how confident of a driver your are, you'll be surprised at the pucker factor when you go on track. Have Fun
05-29-2015, 05:53 PM
#7
I consider heel and toe and advanced driving technique like left foot braking or trail braking. As a beginner you should worry about the fundamentals: proper line, smooth inputs with feet and hands and vision, particularly flags. The other items will be on the agenda as you mature on the track.
Good advise to listen to your instructor as he will focus with you on the fundamentals. And do not forget to have FUN!!!
Good advise to listen to your instructor as he will focus with you on the fundamentals. And do not forget to have FUN!!!
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05-29-2015, 08:38 PM
#9
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Some stuff that often times goes unsaid but can be really useful:
- Torque your wheel bolts at the track. We all know wheels never come off on track.......until they do.
- Take a deep breath when leaving the grid and entering pit-out lane. You lose points and credibility if you scrape or bang a wall before getting onto the track.
- If the person behind you isn't on your bumper, tap your brakes on pit-out just to make sure. You don't want to find out something "happened" to them at the end of the first straight....
- When in doubt, be conservative. Even if you get a point-by you don't have to take it unless you are comfortable. You will advance faster towards solo if you repeatedly exhibit good judgement.
- Watch your mirrors. Let faster traffic thru. Don't be a DB.
- The difference between being being "comfortable" and "driving on the ragged edge" is probably only a couple seconds a lap difference. There are no winners in DE's and the losers get to ride home with their car on a flatbed. If you start to feel overwhelmed, you're pushing too hard.
- When you come into the pits and are released by your instructor, check your tire pressures. Above 40 psi hot and they will lose grip. Keep them mid-30's hot so bleed them down. I run my 997.1 at 32 f 35 r hot.
_ Most Important: Keep your eyes "up" and "moving". Don't get target fixation on the bumper in front of you. Nothing good comes from that.
Have fun......it's a blast!
PS When parking in the pits, don't set your parking brake or keep your foot in the brake after you come to a standstill. It will warp your rotors.
- Torque your wheel bolts at the track. We all know wheels never come off on track.......until they do.
- Take a deep breath when leaving the grid and entering pit-out lane. You lose points and credibility if you scrape or bang a wall before getting onto the track.
- If the person behind you isn't on your bumper, tap your brakes on pit-out just to make sure. You don't want to find out something "happened" to them at the end of the first straight....
- When in doubt, be conservative. Even if you get a point-by you don't have to take it unless you are comfortable. You will advance faster towards solo if you repeatedly exhibit good judgement.
- Watch your mirrors. Let faster traffic thru. Don't be a DB.
- The difference between being being "comfortable" and "driving on the ragged edge" is probably only a couple seconds a lap difference. There are no winners in DE's and the losers get to ride home with their car on a flatbed. If you start to feel overwhelmed, you're pushing too hard.
- When you come into the pits and are released by your instructor, check your tire pressures. Above 40 psi hot and they will lose grip. Keep them mid-30's hot so bleed them down. I run my 997.1 at 32 f 35 r hot.
_ Most Important: Keep your eyes "up" and "moving". Don't get target fixation on the bumper in front of you. Nothing good comes from that.
Have fun......it's a blast!
PS When parking in the pits, don't set your parking brake or keep your foot in the brake after you come to a standstill. It will warp your rotors.
05-31-2015, 12:52 PM
#10
Rennlist Member
Some stuff that often times goes unsaid but can be really useful:
- Torque your wheel bolts at the track. We all know wheels never come off on track.......until they do.
- Take a deep breath when leaving the grid and entering pit-out lane. You lose points and credibility if you scrape or bang a wall before getting onto the track.
- If the person behind you isn't on your bumper, tap your brakes on pit-out just to make sure. You don't want to find out something "happened" to them at the end of the first straight....
- When in doubt, be conservative. Even if you get a point-by you don't have to take it unless you are comfortable. You will advance faster towards solo if you repeatedly exhibit good judgement.
- Watch your mirrors. Let faster traffic thru. Don't be a DB.
- The difference between being being "comfortable" and "driving on the ragged edge" is probably only a couple seconds a lap difference. There are no winners in DE's and the losers get to ride home with their car on a flatbed. If you start to feel overwhelmed, you're pushing too hard.
- When you come into the pits and are released by your instructor, check your tire pressures. Above 40 psi hot and they will lose grip. Keep them mid-30's hot so bleed them down. I run my 997.1 at 32 f 35 r hot.
_ Most Important: Keep your eyes "up" and "moving". Don't get target fixation on the bumper in front of you. Nothing good comes from that.
Have fun......it's a blast!
PS When parking in the pits, don't set your parking brake or keep your foot in the brake after you come to a standstill. It will warp your rotors.
- Torque your wheel bolts at the track. We all know wheels never come off on track.......until they do.
- Take a deep breath when leaving the grid and entering pit-out lane. You lose points and credibility if you scrape or bang a wall before getting onto the track.
- If the person behind you isn't on your bumper, tap your brakes on pit-out just to make sure. You don't want to find out something "happened" to them at the end of the first straight....
- When in doubt, be conservative. Even if you get a point-by you don't have to take it unless you are comfortable. You will advance faster towards solo if you repeatedly exhibit good judgement.
- Watch your mirrors. Let faster traffic thru. Don't be a DB.
- The difference between being being "comfortable" and "driving on the ragged edge" is probably only a couple seconds a lap difference. There are no winners in DE's and the losers get to ride home with their car on a flatbed. If you start to feel overwhelmed, you're pushing too hard.
- When you come into the pits and are released by your instructor, check your tire pressures. Above 40 psi hot and they will lose grip. Keep them mid-30's hot so bleed them down. I run my 997.1 at 32 f 35 r hot.
_ Most Important: Keep your eyes "up" and "moving". Don't get target fixation on the bumper in front of you. Nothing good comes from that.
Have fun......it's a blast!
PS When parking in the pits, don't set your parking brake or keep your foot in the brake after you come to a standstill. It will warp your rotors.
Trust your car, listen your instructor, be very smooth, look as far ahead as you can. Speed will come. Don't rush it. We are all students of this sport.
-------------
997 C2S 6MT
05-31-2015, 01:12 PM
#11
you asked for advice and got it! 
I like what a chief instructor said to new students at the driver's meeting, before anyone even got onto the track: "the most stressful part of your day is over - and that's getting here this AM". It sounds like you are worried about good things, but the good news is that there are good answers for all of them. As a few have said here already, you will be in good hands with an instructor. TBH I'd ignore most of the other advice here!! That's until you hear it again from your instructor, and for when you are done with your first event and come back to look at what we all said!
You asked a good question about heal-and-toe. You won't need it right away. Just brake early enough to then down-shift as you normally do before you go into the corner.
I like what a chief instructor said to new students at the driver's meeting, before anyone even got onto the track: "the most stressful part of your day is over - and that's getting here this AM". It sounds like you are worried about good things, but the good news is that there are good answers for all of them. As a few have said here already, you will be in good hands with an instructor. TBH I'd ignore most of the other advice here!! That's until you hear it again from your instructor, and for when you are done with your first event and come back to look at what we all said!
You asked a good question about heal-and-toe. You won't need it right away. Just brake early enough to then down-shift as you normally do before you go into the corner.
05-31-2015, 04:09 PM
#12
I appreciate all the advice. It was definitely a good experience for me and I'd like to take my car (or another car) to the track again. That being said, things didn't go as well as I'd like.
The instructor drove my car for a few laps and explained what he was doing, did seemingly instantaneous heel-toe downshifts and I couldn't tell if he was lifting off the throttle or braking sometimes. I really did my best to try and learn, but it was like being on an intense roller coaster and asked to remember braking and acceleration points. Also, I didn't realize we had to put the windows down w/no AC and with the noise I could barely hear what he was saying and I don't think he could hear me. Another annoyance was there were no cones to show you brake or turn in points so I had a lot of trouble judging those.
My biggest problem early was keeping the wheel turned too much and not letting the car track out. In my mind it was safer to stay inside the turn then to track out into the grass or a wall. Eventually I got rid of this bad habit.
Another terrifying problem was all the other cars on the track. I don't see why they can't space us out more and have a more organized way of getting the cars on the track. Not only was I terrified going at those speeds and trying to learn these different points, but also frequently I either had a car right behind me or in front of me. Even with the clear passing rules there were many times I felt uncomfortable b/c of the other cars.
I also wish they had some kind of recording that they could go over with you during the nearly hour downtime after each session. The problem with the instruction was I wouldn't hear anything and turn on my own and then hear "that was too early. you see you now have the wrong angle". As I heard that I'm looking ahead and just couldn't figure out the right points or how hard to turn. I don't understand why we have to brake so late when traveling over 100mph before a tight turn. The instructor kept pushing me to go further before braking and then turn sharply to the rumble strips.
Along with braking later than I felt comfortable, the shifting was difficult. He actually told me to try heal toe, but as I said above it was right after going 100+ and heavy braking and then right after I had to do a tight turn immediately. So I actually got the heal-toe, but he said I was turning late after and there didn't seem to be many opportunities to do normal downshifts so I ended up just leaving it in 3rd.
Now that I've had some time to think about it I think the problem was most people in the group had driven their own or similar cars on the track before and they weren't ready for someone with my (lack of) skills. I also wish I could have gone laughably slow the 1st few laps, that they had cones and that I could hear the instructors so I'd get advice before I do something stupid instead of after the fact. It was physically and mentally exhausting trying to juggle so many different things (instructors commands, other cars, track points, my wrong instincts, etc).
So it was a little bit fun, but I definitely need more practice before I'm not terrified the whole time
The instructor drove my car for a few laps and explained what he was doing, did seemingly instantaneous heel-toe downshifts and I couldn't tell if he was lifting off the throttle or braking sometimes. I really did my best to try and learn, but it was like being on an intense roller coaster and asked to remember braking and acceleration points. Also, I didn't realize we had to put the windows down w/no AC and with the noise I could barely hear what he was saying and I don't think he could hear me. Another annoyance was there were no cones to show you brake or turn in points so I had a lot of trouble judging those.
My biggest problem early was keeping the wheel turned too much and not letting the car track out. In my mind it was safer to stay inside the turn then to track out into the grass or a wall. Eventually I got rid of this bad habit.
Another terrifying problem was all the other cars on the track. I don't see why they can't space us out more and have a more organized way of getting the cars on the track. Not only was I terrified going at those speeds and trying to learn these different points, but also frequently I either had a car right behind me or in front of me. Even with the clear passing rules there were many times I felt uncomfortable b/c of the other cars.
I also wish they had some kind of recording that they could go over with you during the nearly hour downtime after each session. The problem with the instruction was I wouldn't hear anything and turn on my own and then hear "that was too early. you see you now have the wrong angle". As I heard that I'm looking ahead and just couldn't figure out the right points or how hard to turn. I don't understand why we have to brake so late when traveling over 100mph before a tight turn. The instructor kept pushing me to go further before braking and then turn sharply to the rumble strips.
Along with braking later than I felt comfortable, the shifting was difficult. He actually told me to try heal toe, but as I said above it was right after going 100+ and heavy braking and then right after I had to do a tight turn immediately. So I actually got the heal-toe, but he said I was turning late after and there didn't seem to be many opportunities to do normal downshifts so I ended up just leaving it in 3rd.
Now that I've had some time to think about it I think the problem was most people in the group had driven their own or similar cars on the track before and they weren't ready for someone with my (lack of) skills. I also wish I could have gone laughably slow the 1st few laps, that they had cones and that I could hear the instructors so I'd get advice before I do something stupid instead of after the fact. It was physically and mentally exhausting trying to juggle so many different things (instructors commands, other cars, track points, my wrong instincts, etc).
So it was a little bit fun, but I definitely need more practice before I'm not terrified the whole time
05-31-2015, 05:38 PM
#14
Was this a single day or 2 day event? For my first event my instructor had a chatterbox, it might be something to invest in if it's not common for instructors to have them. I can't imagine being able to hear instructions on a track day without it.
Don't let these things stop you from going to the track, it will just take some time to get more comfortable. Practice your heal/toe on the street, you don't need to be pushing the car hard just normal driving. If you feel like you jumped in at full speed and didn't get much of a gradual increase see if any of your local tracks do progressive paced lap days.
Don't let these things stop you from going to the track, it will just take some time to get more comfortable. Practice your heal/toe on the street, you don't need to be pushing the car hard just normal driving. If you feel like you jumped in at full speed and didn't get much of a gradual increase see if any of your local tracks do progressive paced lap days.
05-31-2015, 06:05 PM
#15
Was this a single day or 2 day event? For my first event my instructor had a chatterbox, it might be something to invest in if it's not common for instructors to have them. I can't imagine being able to hear instructions on a track day without it.
Don't let these things stop you from going to the track, it will just take some time to get more comfortable. Practice your heal/toe on the street, you don't need to be pushing the car hard just normal driving. If you feel like you jumped in at full speed and didn't get much of a gradual increase see if any of your local tracks do progressive paced lap days.
Don't let these things stop you from going to the track, it will just take some time to get more comfortable. Practice your heal/toe on the street, you don't need to be pushing the car hard just normal driving. If you feel like you jumped in at full speed and didn't get much of a gradual increase see if any of your local tracks do progressive paced lap days.