2014 GT3
03-05-2013, 04:26 PM
#46
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To me the difference between manual and auto/PDK is not the difference in the resulting lap time. It is the greater satisfaction I get from earning that better lap time. In a manual I need to concentrate not just on the road but also on the machinery that moves me down the road. Heel and toe is a bitch to get right but when it is done right it gives me more satisfaction than merely the better lap time. It is my mastery of the machine to accomplish the goal, not the machine's mastery that I enjoy most.
Bingo. Into the wall you go. Changeable toe on track? NOFA KING WAY.
03-05-2013, 04:41 PM
#47
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BMW went down this road about 10 years ago with paddle shifters only for the M5. The complaints did not come from Europe where most of the cars on the road are manuel, but rather from North America where a small fraction of road going cars are manual. BMW back tracked and made the M5 with a 6 speed..... even though the drivetrain was not made for it as a result.
Porsche would have been more wise to offer both for this current generation and see where the numbers fall and then offer one or the other for the subsequent generation.
Personally, I'm happy with my sometimes referred to as "raw" 996 GT3 for it's simplicity and focused purpose. Without the overwhelming electronics, true dry sump and GT1 Metzer engine, I know I can work on most of the things myself and if not, an Indy shop can do it instead of being forced to always go to a Porsche dealership.
Funny that someone should bring up the antiquated use of typewriters, because I had the pleaure of meeting some great people this past weekend at the track that hosted dinner on two nights and invited our group to join them. I could have texted them or even emailed them to thank them for their hospitality, but I went to the effort of getting their address so that I could send them a handwritten thank you note. The extra effort is certainly less "efficient" and slower for the recipient to receive, but the impression is greater when they finally do get the personal note and the extra time and care to do so. An analogy can be drawn between the PDK and a manual gearbox in the same regard.
Porsche would have been more wise to offer both for this current generation and see where the numbers fall and then offer one or the other for the subsequent generation.
Personally, I'm happy with my sometimes referred to as "raw" 996 GT3 for it's simplicity and focused purpose. Without the overwhelming electronics, true dry sump and GT1 Metzer engine, I know I can work on most of the things myself and if not, an Indy shop can do it instead of being forced to always go to a Porsche dealership.
Funny that someone should bring up the antiquated use of typewriters, because I had the pleaure of meeting some great people this past weekend at the track that hosted dinner on two nights and invited our group to join them. I could have texted them or even emailed them to thank them for their hospitality, but I went to the effort of getting their address so that I could send them a handwritten thank you note. The extra effort is certainly less "efficient" and slower for the recipient to receive, but the impression is greater when they finally do get the personal note and the extra time and care to do so. An analogy can be drawn between the PDK and a manual gearbox in the same regard.
03-05-2013, 05:09 PM
#48
2014: the begining of the automatic Porsche.
2016: automatic steering inputs.
2026: you hire a computer coach program to drive remotely for you. you just sit in the car.
2016: automatic steering inputs.
2026: you hire a computer coach program to drive remotely for you. you just sit in the car.
03-05-2013, 05:12 PM
#49
03-05-2013, 08:43 PM
#50
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anybody know why Ferrari & Lambo went to paddle shifters and away from manual?
Because they found that their customer base were older rich guys with not a lot of driving talent that couldn't handle the performance clutch, thus burning them out in 3-5k miles...in turn creating an image that Ferraris and Lambos have faulty components. So, they took the issue (human) out of the equation.
Just sayin...
Because they found that their customer base were older rich guys with not a lot of driving talent that couldn't handle the performance clutch, thus burning them out in 3-5k miles...in turn creating an image that Ferraris and Lambos have faulty components. So, they took the issue (human) out of the equation.
Just sayin...
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Bob Saville
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Bob Saville
Getting You On Track!
www.naroescapemotorsports.com
704-395-2975
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'07 SPC
'71 914/6 Huey
'04 GT3
03-05-2013, 08:46 PM
#51
Rennlist Member
anybody know why Ferrari & Lambo went to paddle shifters and away from manual?
Because they found that their customer base were older rich guys with not a lot of driving talent that couldn't handle the performance clutch, thus burning them out in 3-5k miles...in turn creating an image that Ferraris and Lambos have faulty components. So, they took the issue (human) out of the equation.
Just sayin...
Because they found that their customer base were older rich guys with not a lot of driving talent that couldn't handle the performance clutch, thus burning them out in 3-5k miles...in turn creating an image that Ferraris and Lambos have faulty components. So, they took the issue (human) out of the equation.
Just sayin...
03-05-2013, 09:48 PM
#52
Rennlist Member
Look: If the idea is to get around the track the fastest, the PDK is the solution. If the idea is to have that extra involvement, the manual is the solution.
Bottom line: They should be offering both types. Too bad they aren't.
PS: I LOVED my '04 996 GT3 -- no electronic aids except ABS, no sunroof, great manual gearbox. But again, if the idea is to get around the track the fastest, the PDK is the solution. (No one complains when there is a new model with 50 more HP; why complain when there is a gearbox which gives you several seconds per lap advantage?)
PPS: Narroescape makes a very good point that the PDK-like trannies in Ferrari/Lambo may have been made the only choice to reduce the incidence of unqualified drivers ruining their cars and giving the brands a bad reputation.
Bottom line: They should be offering both types. Too bad they aren't.
PS: I LOVED my '04 996 GT3 -- no electronic aids except ABS, no sunroof, great manual gearbox. But again, if the idea is to get around the track the fastest, the PDK is the solution. (No one complains when there is a new model with 50 more HP; why complain when there is a gearbox which gives you several seconds per lap advantage?)
PPS: Narroescape makes a very good point that the PDK-like trannies in Ferrari/Lambo may have been made the only choice to reduce the incidence of unqualified drivers ruining their cars and giving the brands a bad reputation.
03-05-2013, 10:12 PM
#53
Rennlist Member
If the point of PDK is to max out lap times then that also dictates that the car will be driven in auto mode. This is ultimately the problem with PDK on the track - is not the lack of a clutch pedal, its the complete lack of driver involvement with gear selection.
As a driver we only have three inputs - brakes, steering, and gear selection. I can kind of justify paddle shift as it makes the shifting input easier but does not eliminate the driver completely. They still must decide when to execute that short shift, which gear to carry through a turn, etc. Perhaps its like how ABS makes braking easier, but a more exaggerated example.
PDK on the other hand completely eliminates the driver from the gear selection process, both physically and mentally. The entire driver involvement is eliminated from the gear selection process leaving steering and braking as the only inputs. So if you accept this, would you also be be willing to accept a car that does all of the braking for you? Or all of the steering? If you accept that the best technology should always be employed you can easily see how the remote control car theory isn't very far off.
I'm not anti technology. I have a paddle shift Ferrari and LOVE it on the street. Makes perfect sense for traffic or quickly grabbing a lower gear on an unfamiliar country road that suddenly reveals a decreasing radius on exit. But when I am on the track or racing I am there with the singular purpose of learning to master all three inputs. I never do, but the thrill of trying is always there. Eliminating one of the inputs would lesson that experience. Sure the excitement of lower lap times via technology would be fun for a while and provide bragging rights, but ultimately taking away my involvement in the gear selection process sounds just as exciting as having someone braking or steering for me.
Unless I am racing for a paycheck, no PDK for me. But perhaps that's the point of the new GT3. It's not a race car, just an occasional track day toy.
As a driver we only have three inputs - brakes, steering, and gear selection. I can kind of justify paddle shift as it makes the shifting input easier but does not eliminate the driver completely. They still must decide when to execute that short shift, which gear to carry through a turn, etc. Perhaps its like how ABS makes braking easier, but a more exaggerated example.
PDK on the other hand completely eliminates the driver from the gear selection process, both physically and mentally. The entire driver involvement is eliminated from the gear selection process leaving steering and braking as the only inputs. So if you accept this, would you also be be willing to accept a car that does all of the braking for you? Or all of the steering? If you accept that the best technology should always be employed you can easily see how the remote control car theory isn't very far off.
I'm not anti technology. I have a paddle shift Ferrari and LOVE it on the street. Makes perfect sense for traffic or quickly grabbing a lower gear on an unfamiliar country road that suddenly reveals a decreasing radius on exit. But when I am on the track or racing I am there with the singular purpose of learning to master all three inputs. I never do, but the thrill of trying is always there. Eliminating one of the inputs would lesson that experience. Sure the excitement of lower lap times via technology would be fun for a while and provide bragging rights, but ultimately taking away my involvement in the gear selection process sounds just as exciting as having someone braking or steering for me.
Unless I am racing for a paycheck, no PDK for me. But perhaps that's the point of the new GT3. It's not a race car, just an occasional track day toy.
03-05-2013, 10:56 PM
#54
Rennlist Member
Gonna stray off topic rather quickly...
I used to be against PDK or any sequential shift gearbox for a street car. But, after driving a Carrera GT and having to baby the thing to get it off the line and letting the electronics do its thing to get it going and driving an Audi R8 GT with it's auto/manual sequential box I prefer the auto for a street car. It just makes getting along with everyday things so much easier.
BUT...for a track car, it's all manual/all the time. Which brings the question, who buys a brand new GT3 for a track car? Typically it's the person that's only been in the game for a relatively short amount of time and wants to go faster and thinks that the tool will get him there. Let's be real here, how many 997 GT3/RS do you see club racing week in and week out? Usually 0, but maybe 1 or 2. It's a cheaper buy in to get a used Cup car than it is to get a street GT3 once you factor safety and go fast stuff into it and most of the time people that do track their street GT3 end up going 'down' to an older air cooled car and go just as fast as they did in the street GT3.
Just my thoughts, take them or leave them. I'm not as old as VR, but I sure think he's funny how someone with 25 posts on here called him out thinking they were the chosen one.
I used to be against PDK or any sequential shift gearbox for a street car. But, after driving a Carrera GT and having to baby the thing to get it off the line and letting the electronics do its thing to get it going and driving an Audi R8 GT with it's auto/manual sequential box I prefer the auto for a street car. It just makes getting along with everyday things so much easier.
BUT...for a track car, it's all manual/all the time. Which brings the question, who buys a brand new GT3 for a track car? Typically it's the person that's only been in the game for a relatively short amount of time and wants to go faster and thinks that the tool will get him there. Let's be real here, how many 997 GT3/RS do you see club racing week in and week out? Usually 0, but maybe 1 or 2. It's a cheaper buy in to get a used Cup car than it is to get a street GT3 once you factor safety and go fast stuff into it and most of the time people that do track their street GT3 end up going 'down' to an older air cooled car and go just as fast as they did in the street GT3.
Just my thoughts, take them or leave them. I'm not as old as VR, but I sure think he's funny how someone with 25 posts on here called him out thinking they were the chosen one.
03-05-2013, 11:17 PM
#55
Three Wheelin'
03-05-2013, 11:27 PM
#56
Official Wednesday AM Red Bull F1 test driver
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I'm probably like one of the 60+ year olds they had in a focus group when they went for the PDK in the new GT3... but I'll be keeping my 997.2 GT3 with three pedals thank you... just like my original owner 914 has 3 pedals too.
03-05-2013, 11:33 PM
#57
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Funny thing about this is my WIFE said she would never own a car that was not a manual.
03-05-2013, 11:44 PM
#58
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As a driver we only have three inputs - brakes, steering, and gear selection. I can kind of justify paddle shift as it makes the shifting input easier but does not eliminate the driver completely. They still must decide when to execute that short shift, which gear to carry through a turn, etc. Perhaps its like how ABS makes braking easier, but a more exaggerated example.
PDK on the other hand completely eliminates the driver from the gear selection process, both physically and mentally. The entire driver involvement is eliminated from the gear selection process leaving steering and braking as the only inputs.
PDK on the other hand completely eliminates the driver from the gear selection process, both physically and mentally. The entire driver involvement is eliminated from the gear selection process leaving steering and braking as the only inputs.
03-05-2013, 11:52 PM
#59
03-06-2013, 02:16 AM
#60
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More....
+991 on retaining enough technology to separate good drivers from Gamers.
+991 on retaining enough technology to separate good drivers from Gamers.