FrankyV

I thought that handle was familiar.

analogmike

Does seem that way, also seems to apply to some people who get "free" repairs on their cars... Guys like me who break our backs for a living to pay for the cars and repairs are VERY careful and protective of our race cars.

PedroNole

Well, I realize I'm coming days late to this but I read every post and have to take issue with a couple of things....

First, this seems to be yet another "those guys in Cup Cars" thread.... For your information, the wreck in turn 1 didn't happen because someone was new to a Cup Car or in over their head or didn't know what they were doing. It was a racing incident that unfortunately caused a lot of carnage. Friends of mine were involved and I narrowly escaped it myself. **** happens when you go RACING. Sometimes it happens because someone loses concentration, focus or their mind. Sometimes people are a little too hyped up. Sometimes, someone is overly aggressive in the first turn. Sometimes stuff happens because you just can't fix stupid. My point is that you will NEVER EVER get rid of all the reasons this happens and it's not a "Cup Car" thing. It's a driver thing. Kind of like guns don't kill people, people kill people.

I DE'd for 2 years before I started racing and I've been racing for about 6 years now and I still make a LOT of mistakes. We're ALL still learning. I shake my head when I read some of this stuff and wonder if you're as immune from mistakes as you portray yourselves to be on the Internet. I guess it's just the drivers in the Red group or the Cup Cars that are the ones who shouldn't be there or are the ones who make the mistakes....

As far as the GT3 or GT4 drivers having to get stuck in the red group, well, trust me it's no picnic for the Cup Cars either. 75 cars took the green flag in the first Red sprint. SEVENTY-FIVE.... I complained and complained about having 3 race groups and TWO DE groups at a Club RACING weekend. I don't care how big the track is, 75 cars is too many especially if that means that the disparity of speeds is as great as it turns out to be within the group. Can some guys (and ladies) wheel the hell out of a GT3 or GT4 car? Certainly. Can they beat some guys in some Cup Cars, certainly. So? We all still have to co-exist. There are a lot of GT3 or GT4 drivers that are not predictable when you come up on them, don't stay on line or simply block you. Yet when they get back to the paddock all they can do is bitch about the ****ty Cup Car drivers. I can show you a lot of video of some bone head moves made by GT3 or GT4 drivers. Instead of bitching on the Internet though, whenever I have a bad situation with another driver (my fault or theirs) I seek them out in the paddock and I address it. If it doesn't get resolved between us, I seek out a PCA Steward.

I'm probably jinxing myself but I'm on my third Cup Car, probably do more than the average number of driver Club Racing weekends per year, I'm probably as "aggressive" as I think it gets in Club Racing and I've never hit anyone and never had a 13. I've been hit 3 times where those drivers got a 13. As a "Cup Car" guy, I do think that there are guys that just decided that they wanted to go racing, bought the newest Cup Car they could and go out on the track and think they're Captain America. That doesn't end well usually. It probably does happen more in the Red group but I don't know that for sure. Does that make the Red "group" bad? No, it means that we're not immune from stupid but I've yet to see anyone come up with a good solution for that so I do what I need to as a driver to be aware of those people and drive accordingly. I also see situations, especially in Enduros where there's a really fast guy who qualifies the car but has a slower driver (by a few seconds....) start the race. I think it's dangerous and probably has led to some accidents but I can't prevent it from happening. I can only recognize it and drive accordingly.

If you're struggling with my point in all of this it's simply that there are a lot of us in the Red group that don't like what happens any more than most of you. However, just because a wreck happens in the Red group it doesn't always mean that it was some bozo trying to be Captain America. When you go racing, you're doing something inherently dangerous and filled with the chance that something bad can happen. So, when something bad does happen, shock and awe is a little naive and disengenous. If you're in the Red group and have a problem with something, confront the driver or go to a steward. Bitching on the Internet has proven not to solve anything.

danielyonker

"First, this seems to be yet another "those guys in Cup Cars" thread.... For your information, the wreck in turn 1 didn't happen because someone was new to a Cup Car or in over their head or didn't know what they were doing. It was a racing incident that unfortunately caused a lot of carnage."


Perhaps this is where we must agree to disagree....I saw a white cup car getting loose while over applying the brakes. I think this incident was unavoidable. I have been in several racing incidents, and this, to me, does not qualify as one.

Beyond this, I agree that there were too many cars on the track, although once spread out, it was not a big deal. I am a proponent of split starts in a case like this......keep us from killing ourselves. ****, the lawyers and the government have been doing this for years!

coryf

The number of cars was an issue for sure. During the practice sessions, we literally did not get one open lap. On the green flag lap we caught the back of the field on the back straight. During qualifying I started from pit lane to try to get some open track. Did an out lap, one open lap with cold tires and caught traffic on the 2nd flyer. Another race group might have helped. Hopefully next year.

GT3 Techno

I wasn't there but from what we can see on the video, you are absolutely right.

The car that caused the carnage was on his line, didn't make any pass on the start, started braking in a straight line and was not too close to the car in front of him. He must be a fast driver also since he qualified his car in front of the pack, so I think he did a mistake anyone can do at some point. I don't think he was braking too hard either. It looks like he forgot to release the clutch immediately on the downshift.

ninjabones

Agreed... this many cars was a recipe for badness. Practice sessions turned into mini-qualifying sessions from the very first session on Friday morning. Being my first sojourn to sebring, I was told by an experienced racer that the priority was to turn at least one fast/clean lap every session right out of the gait, or I would be bridled/fettered by inescapable mid-pack traffic for the rest of the weekend. This is really a shame, as it defeats the intent/purpose of "practice" sessions.

Even in quali, yonks and I knew that our only shot at a decent lap was going to be on the outlap on cold tires. We both dropped the hammer out of the pits and turned our best times on the outlap, immediately catching lap traffic on lap #2. I was definitely capable of at least 1 second better, but pulled in to the pits to let the herd thin... but it never happened. Tried to come out again with about 5 min left and the traffic was just as bad.

ProCoach

Good post.

John H

I have said this about Watkins Glen too. It is mandatory to have a flyer in every session lest you be stuck with a pack where you really don't belong. A mechanical in an early session can doom the weekend.

PedroNole

And you know this how? Are you certain it wasn't mechanical failure?

Ernie J

Register early Racers, so we don't need DE at Club races. More run groups for racers. Smaller run groups. Accidents will happen anyways.

SoClose

Peter, glad that you're giving your input- I believe the only Cup car driver from the weekend that has.
Personally, from Alex's video, I do think that the incident was avoidable- the speed differential at impact suggests to me that there was a big disconnect in the hitting car's expectation of what was going on in front of him. I suggest that we have seen similar behavior at another event which would imply a pattern here.
For the Cup/GT thing, I believe for me the issue is knowledge of other cars and drivers around you. If you don't know the performance of the car next to you, give him/her room. Somehow Jerry Greene started behind me in the first race, passed me in a corner, I passed him on the next straight, then he passed me in a corner (never to be seen again). Side by side, clean- what I expect from him (and hopefully him of me), and I'm sure he realizes that my 3R will walk his C3 on the next straight. In contrast, the big issue I heard during the weekend was pointing a faster car by,lifting, then getting chopped. At Rd America last year I was driven off the track twice by C4 cars that I guess didn't expect me to be alongside them after exiting turn 7 side by side, on the straight down to 8. We look for the C3/4 class designation to determine if that car has ABS, or a sequential box- and make a plan. Not sure how many C3/4 drivers realize the performance potential of GT3/4 cars- the class records for GT 3 is a 2:13 and GT4 a 2:14.
As far as approaching other drivers, it is rare that something happens on track to get me pissed enough to want to speak with the other driver, and confrontation may not turn out well for either of us. I respect a driver that can pull that off, but I know myself well enough to stay away and go directly to the stewards with video. I did that at The Glen last year because of driving behavior that could have caused a major wreck.
In every class, in every race series, there are drivers of varying experience. I think that for safety, budget and fun, we have to learn to all get along. Mutual respect. The stewards always say 'take care of each other out there' and co-existence in the corners'- they are absolutely correct. We are all friends, whether we've actually met or not, and the prize at the end of the weekend is a cold beer and an intact car.

analogmike

YES that's why I hate Sebring... it's like groundhog day...

Exactly!!! Last year I was great in the 1st few sessions but got to ONE session late and that was it- I should have packed up and gone home as my weekend of fun was over.

Sebring and PCA race organizers, PLEASE do something to stop this. Smaller race groups with more similar cars, as nearly everyone has asked for, is the obvious solution.

PedroNole

Paul-

First, you know that I have a LOT of respect for you and Kim as drivers. I'd be side by side or in between the two of you (in Turn 1...) at speed any day. She and I had dinner Tuesday night and had a LONG discussion about some of these very issues with David Murry and others. Funny that after that Tuesday conversation, here we are again....

Second, relative to the confrontation thing, I had an incident with one of my competitors in qualifying and they basically ran me into the wall in the middle of the back straight on the out-lap. I sought them out after the race and let them know EXACTLY how I felt about it. If we were racing and he had been driving defensively for position, that's one thing but this was in green flag outlap in qualifying. He just thought he was faster and didn't think I should have been in front of him. It was all ego and that's when it gets dangerous (I ended up qualifying about 2 seconds faster...). The confrontation didn't end well but that's ok. I said my peace and I guarantee it won't happen again with him. Even though that exchange was very heated, I went to him on the grid before the first race and apologized for some of my language. He was a jerk about it again but that's ok, I said my peace.

If people are out there doing stupid/dangerous stuff, I believe we are obligated to confront it individually and/or through the stewards. If we don't then I think we lose some of our right to bitch....

good hands

Does anyone know who was taking pictures ?