Circuit Motorsports

I think it is very car dependant. In a high HP, lower grip car I can see them, at least 12, being pretty challenging.

11 and 12 are incredibly boring in the SRF. I'm shifting in the middle of 12 even it's such a non issue.

Nick Wong

Hard to drive-
At Carolina Motorsports Park- the first left hander after the back straight. I find that one very difficult to execute properly. Someone had mentioned Daytona T1, I think that is difficult for the same reasons, although Daytona T1 is blind which makes me pucker even harder.
T17 at Sebring. The bumps and grip seem to change every lap and finding a smooth, fast line is difficult.
The Carousel at Mid Ohio. The big bump on line makes this one extremely difficult, especially in a kart. In a race I usually only stay on line there for the last lap if I have someone on my bumper or if I'm trying to pass before the checkered.

Scary to drive-
The Kink at Road America. Timing the turn in can be difficult and in a typical DE setting I let off for the Carousel and Kink. When I raced karts there the Carousel wasn't scary, but the Kink was WOT at over 100mph, lying down.
T2 at Laguna. Going at it WOT from the front straight down the hill, with all the bumps and whoops, the brake release point is difficult, and those who have raced or done SBRS there do it as a double apex, where as everyone else sees it as a single apex in a typical DE. That makes for a lot of clag on line for the double apex people and causes the brake concerns. T6 at Laguna can be an issue too if you don't take it right. The dip can cause a suspension overload and toss you off to the right.

Ross_Bentley

Yes, I think it did! Great discussion, and lots of opinions about what makes one corner more difficult than another. However, I loved what car_slave said a few pages ago: “Any turn I know I’m getting badly beat on and can’t quite figure out why.”

And there weren't too many surprises. Fast corners, corners with varying radii or elevation, and ones with a lack of visual references seem to show up often.

GuyIncognito

Ross, it seems like you can break this down into two groups: technically challenging corners which require the right knowledge-setup, driving skills, techniques, etc and psychologically challenging corners (fast, dangerous, elements of the unknown/blind corners) which require the right mindset-courage, confidence, bravery, etc.

is that an over-simplification? if not, any tips on each category?

thanks!

Nordschleife

I dunno, I drive the Nordschleife a lot, summer, winter, rain, hail, most of the corners are tricky if you are fast enough, if they aren't you ain't fast enough.

Testing one time we got up for an early briefing and it was foggy, really bad fog. One of the new drivers asked if our schedules could be relaxed as the fog was so heavy. The bloke sitting next to me interjected 'why has the circuit been moved?' but in idiomatic Tirolian slang (of course). The schedule wasn't relaxed, a matter of professional pride, we ran more kilometres that day at a faster average than any other day that week.

R+C

winders

I did ask Alan. He is a great guy, by the way!

Alan said that Barber's sole focus was bikes but he designed the track with both bikes and cars in mind.

Barber wanted the track to be very technical. They laid out the track so the there would a distinctive "fast" qualifying line and much different racing line because the driver/rider would have to protect his position.

Another goal was to reduce the gap between higher horsepower and lower horsepower cars/bikes as to make it more of a challenge for the higher horsepower cars/bikes.

Alan noted that some people complain that the track is too narrow yet at 45 feet wide is one of the widest in the U.S. He also noted that some people complained that it was a hard track to pass on yet there is more overtaking there than at most tracks, particularly amongst the better riders/drivers as they learn the technicalities of the layout.

Anyway, he made it clear he did not design the race track as a motorcycle-only track even though motorcycles are what Barber was solely focused on.

Scott

ProCoach

That was what I meant when I said it was Alan's design brief from George Barber.

It certainly is one of the widest tracks I've ever seen. That was the initial concern when DE events and race events ran there because other drivers entering T2, for example, might be unsighted even though they had overlap.

PSDS fixed that by placing small cones in the real estate they didn't want people to go! <grin>

Thanks for the insight.

Juan Lopez

Top of the esses at Road Atlanta is challenging to get it just right. 12 is uncomfortable but not hard IMHO.

rstrahota

The next one!
ds

Juan Lopez

I think that every corner is hard if your goal is to master it and get the last 10th on each one to put together a perfect lap . That is my goal.

I look forward to the day that my best lap equals what my MOTEC indicates as the eclectic lap and then my goal will change to do it consistently. I have only achieved that or have very come close to it at 2 tracks so far.

You are never done learning... !

Lemming

The first thin we do when we go there for a DE is to make sure those stupid cones are removed

67King

I'm with you on that one. Both counts, really. When you get used to 12, though, you don't even think about it any more.

Problem with 5 is that there are some drastically different ways through that turn. I tend to follow the last left on the esses a bit further than most, which puts me in a straight line for my hard braking into 5. I try to brake as I hit the outside gator, which is a little slicker, helping to rotate the car. All of that while downshifting and turning in a fraction of a second is difficult, but when done correctly, is a thing of beauty.

Seems more people cut that last left hander shorter than I do, and brake while turning right going into 5, then turn earlier, almsot early apexing, and tracking out earlier. I've even seen folks brake after turning in.

ProCoach

Agreed. The rise in elevation and the consequent improvement in forward bite and traction through the increased compression after the mid-point on the grass on the left to the last projection of the inside curb really "clicks" for folks after they internalize it. I always say "if you make the starter step back ONE step from the edge of the start stand at track out, you've done it right!" <grin>

Don't want to turn this into a virtual coaching session, but...

I think T5 is the hardest corner on the track, period. I've had folks struggle with that since 1984, including yours truly. It is a thing of beauty of you nail it, though!

I absolutely agree with you 100% about following the last left curb at the bottom of the Esses a few car lengths longer to the left (a la T8 at VIR) to "open" the entry into T5 and creating a period of stability for the most efficient and effective reduction in speed and appropriate gear choice for exit (in that order).

The key is to "build" at least a car width space from the right side of the car to the beginning of the outside, turn-in curbing for T5 so that you intersect with the end of the right hand curbing to establish the correct turn in point. The LAST thing is that you're on brakes to help the forward bite and initiate rotation to the left, looking from above.

The data would indicate that FAR too many people come away from the right side curbing too soon (because they, in essence, "early" the right turn INTO the turn-in for Turn 5), try to brake/downshift too late and consequently run wide and/or delay throttle commitment causing them to putter up the hill (or spin as the road drops away after turn in before rising again).

Fun stuff, but I remember the cones we put out for the Road Atlanta School back in the days of Doc Bundy, Jeff Purner and Beaux Barfield as CI's to keep people off that leading edge of the right side curb going into T5 were there for a reason...

Getting back to solutions for reducing the difficulty of "the toughest corner," always "begin with the end in mind" and work back to develop a plan to execute as well as you can, each and every time.

FFaust

67King

Sorry, that wasn't my intent. Just trying to explain why I find it hard to nail, and the fact that I drive it differently than most has a lot to do with that. That said, glad to read the feedback, sounds like 944hal taught (or at least tried) me well