does spec e36 exist?
Thread Starter
Rennlist Member
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 6,087
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From: MA
What are your goals,desires for the future ?
Do you want to just continue doing DE's ? Want to club race ?
Want to race against some seriously competitive other drivers ? Want to bring home a trophy so you can go into work on Monday and brag to everyone how you won your race class even though you leave out the fact that you were the only car in your class ? Want to race pro,Grand Am,etc ? Want to just challenge your own personal best times ?
Answering those questions along with establishing what your true car build or purchase used budget will make it easier to figure out what fits best.
There are no right or wrong answers here either, it's just determining what you want.
Do you want to just continue doing DE's ? Want to club race ?
Want to race against some seriously competitive other drivers ? Want to bring home a trophy so you can go into work on Monday and brag to everyone how you won your race class even though you leave out the fact that you were the only car in your class ? Want to race pro,Grand Am,etc ? Want to just challenge your own personal best times ?
Answering those questions along with establishing what your true car build or purchase used budget will make it easier to figure out what fits best.
There are no right or wrong answers here either, it's just determining what you want.
right now my goal is to build a car i can abuse with minimal risk for my health.
future is difficult to define. i want to race, but it requires a lot of travel and that means time. money is much less a problem right now for me compared to time. so, it will progress as it goes now, slowly. meanwhile i will probably get to black run group with PCA, but i am not really interested in all that, it is just an abuse of the motor for no real reward plus dealing with PCA - brrr. honestly all i care right now are my lap times.
i like time trials format, but again, first thing is a car, trailer, tow, etc. so far i think E46 car is a best startup platform for me. will see.
Race Car
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,550
Likes: 2
From: Texas
And 2011 GTS4 position 2 was a 996, which lead for a large portion of the race until the winning E46 cars setup came in and he dropped a few seconds that he hadn't had all week long.
Thread Starter
Rennlist Member
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 6,087
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From: MA
Speaking of E46 car - as i run now JRZ RS shocks on my 997 - can those shocks be easily modified to fit E46 ?
i cannot figure out from pictures - looks almost identical to what I have now.
I also see on bimmer forums they apparently grade MCS suspension as 'top of the crop' - is it really so good to be on par with motons pro and ohlins?
i cannot figure out from pictures - looks almost identical to what I have now.
I also see on bimmer forums they apparently grade MCS suspension as 'top of the crop' - is it really so good to be on par with motons pro and ohlins?
Drifting
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,007
Likes: 49
From: Alpharetta, GA
E36 M or Non M is GTS-2 Competitive. And arguably less money to build and maintain (including consumables) than the P alternative.
GTS-3 is where the E36 M falls into but it is towards the bottom of the class in standard race trim. It takes a bit of Ballast and De-Tuning ala' restrictor plate to land it at the top of GTS-2.
We can argue all day about which is better. However I feel that the overall costs of the E36 out weigh the alternative.
BMWCCA Does have Spec E36 class. However you'd be hard pressed to run good in both groups (NASA & BMWCCA E36 Spec) because spec E36 is w/o Aero. NASA allows a lot of Aero. (you could always bolt a wing on)
NASA SE 3 out 4 track records in GTS2 are in E36 cars.
http://www.nasa-se.com/pdf/trackrecords.pdf
GTS-3 is where the E36 M falls into but it is towards the bottom of the class in standard race trim. It takes a bit of Ballast and De-Tuning ala' restrictor plate to land it at the top of GTS-2.
We can argue all day about which is better. However I feel that the overall costs of the E36 out weigh the alternative.
BMWCCA Does have Spec E36 class. However you'd be hard pressed to run good in both groups (NASA & BMWCCA E36 Spec) because spec E36 is w/o Aero. NASA allows a lot of Aero. (you could always bolt a wing on)
NASA SE 3 out 4 track records in GTS2 are in E36 cars.
http://www.nasa-se.com/pdf/trackrecords.pdf
Race Car
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,550
Likes: 2
From: Texas
Speaking of E46 car - as i run now JRZ RS shocks on my 997 - can those shocks be easily modified to fit E46 ?
i cannot figure out from pictures - looks almost identical to what I have now.
I also see on bimmer forums they apparently grade MCS suspension as 'top of the crop' - is it really so good to be on par with motons pro and ohlins?
i cannot figure out from pictures - looks almost identical to what I have now.
I also see on bimmer forums they apparently grade MCS suspension as 'top of the crop' - is it really so good to be on par with motons pro and ohlins?
If you are comparing the 2 ways to 2ways and 3 ways to 3 ways, then yes, they are equal or better. But shocks can be like oil, MCS,Penske,Ohlin,JRZ,Moton, are all good shocks.
Me personally, I find the MCS shocks a better shock to set up, they allow me to get just what I want out of the suspensions, the fit is great, and the support I get from Lex and Kent when rebuilds are needed is the quickest and best in the industry. Those reasons together make my choice a simple one.
Race Car
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,550
Likes: 2
From: Texas
I personally feel the overall Porsche cost is less or equal to the BMW tho. Want just an also ran car ? Either can be done cheaply, want a competitive car you will spend more money.
Now keep in mind that when I look at overall costs I do look at maintenance and upkeep as well, not just the build costs. That is where the P-cars really pay off.
Last edited by onefastviking; May 29, 2012 at 12:00 PM.
Three Wheelin'
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 1,708
Likes: 12
From: Atlanta, GA
I find it hard to believe that E36 cars can be built or maintained any more cheaply than the 944/968 based cars that dominate GTS2 in the Great Lakes Region and at Nationals.
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Thread Starter
Rennlist Member
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 6,087
Likes: 51
From: MA
where can you find a M96 motor for $5K? or $7K? plus what realy rains on this parade is labor/parts cost to get this motor rebuilt properly so you could expect it to deliver. it is nowhere near of how much it costs to refresh S52/S54.
one used M96 plus its proper rebuild = x4 S52 motors with gearboxes, pretty much.
where am i wrong with this computation?
Race Car
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,550
Likes: 2
From: Texas
Although I think some cars are better suited for some classes. GTS1/2 work great for 944/968's , taking a 944/968 up to GTS4 or 5 would be hard to do, not impossible, but there are better choices.
For GTS3/4/5 I think a 996/986/E36/E46 are better suited cars, but that's just my opinion and what the heck do I know.
Race Car
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,550
Likes: 2
From: Texas
well, i see plenty of S52 motors for sale from $3K to $5K area, some are with trannies. S54 sells for about of $3K more right now as i see it, some folks on forums responded me - $10K top, usually about of $7K.
where can you find a M96 motor for $5K? or $7K? plus what realy rains on this parade is labor/parts cost to get this motor rebuilt properly so you could expect it to deliver. it is nowhere near of how much it costs to refresh S52/S54.
one used M96 plus its proper rebuild = x4 S52 motors with gearboxes, pretty much.
where am i wrong with this computation?
where can you find a M96 motor for $5K? or $7K? plus what realy rains on this parade is labor/parts cost to get this motor rebuilt properly so you could expect it to deliver. it is nowhere near of how much it costs to refresh S52/S54.
one used M96 plus its proper rebuild = x4 S52 motors with gearboxes, pretty much.
where am i wrong with this computation?
I know more guys that have spent 20-35k on M motors than I know of 20-35k spent on P-car motors.
Bottom line, you believe what you want and do what you want, it's your dollar. I've been in the race car/street car business with Porsche's and BMW's for 25 yrs now, longer if you'd like to include my motorcycle and other car experience. It's basically what I have done my whole life, I do have a little experience and idea and I'm not just forming an opinion based on what I read on the internet.
I'm not saying the BMW is a bad way to go, it's just not a cheaper way to go !
Race Car
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,550
Likes: 2
From: Texas
DEs do not attract me much. in all honesty i find it boring to the death. now with Solo DL unit i can at least see lap times and keep pushing lap after lap, so, it helps a bit.
right now my goal is to build a car i can abuse with minimal risk for my health.
future is difficult to define. i want to race, but it requires a lot of travel and that means time. money is much less a problem right now for me compared to time. so, it will progress as it goes now, slowly. meanwhile i will probably get to black run group with PCA, but i am not really interested in all that, it is just an abuse of the motor for no real reward plus dealing with PCA - brrr. honestly all i care right now are my lap times.
i like time trials format, but again, first thing is a car, trailer, tow, etc. so far i think E46 car is a best startup platform for me. will see.
right now my goal is to build a car i can abuse with minimal risk for my health.
future is difficult to define. i want to race, but it requires a lot of travel and that means time. money is much less a problem right now for me compared to time. so, it will progress as it goes now, slowly. meanwhile i will probably get to black run group with PCA, but i am not really interested in all that, it is just an abuse of the motor for no real reward plus dealing with PCA - brrr. honestly all i care right now are my lap times.
i like time trials format, but again, first thing is a car, trailer, tow, etc. so far i think E46 car is a best startup platform for me. will see.
My initial reaction when reading this is that you drive "Flat out".
My advice would be to get as much proper instruction and coaching as you possibly can afford, for what you say you are concerned with the most,your lap times, the biggest difference you can always make here is adjusting the nut behind the wheel. Keep your 997 and drive it or buy something safe,cheap, and expendable, Miatas are great for this, and then invest in data,video, and private coaching. This will give you the most bang for the buck. If you can't , or won't, invest in the private coaching, although you seem to be a man of good means, then get as many real good DE instructors as you can in the car with you offering suggestions. Try what the say, then review data and video.
Race Car
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,550
Likes: 2
From: Texas
Easy to build an also ran motor, those are cheap, Porsche or BMW.
Thread Starter
Rennlist Member
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 6,087
Likes: 51
From: MA
i have 3 pro grade porsche shops close to town where i live. and i checked with all of them on m96 motors.
i beleive there is a certain disconnect between racers 'inner' circle who know each other and have their own 'market' and an outside world that has to deal with those engine issues. lowest price I was told was $9K for a used motor in an unknown condition then $3K-$4K labor to put it in. with no guarantees. to have guarantees you`d have to rebuild it.
so only option i have here is to believe into local prices that I would have to pay in case if I have to use those services from local shops.