PCA club race blocking?
#91
My interpretation of the defensive line is that it would be fine to move to the next apex side when at or near the braking zone. A block would be moving over to the next apex side while still on the straight. At Lime Rock this would translate to any move to the right before start finish would be considered a block. After start finish, its fine. (solely my own opinion).
I am amazed at how many people think moving over at the beginning of a straight is ok. I raced in GTC1 with Scotto, Burger, Savenor, Boyer and Jenks and I can't think of one time of someone doing a driving down the "wrong side of the straight" move. You also don't see this from pro drivers (ok, most pro drivers). Here's a classic one and these guys managed to have an epic battle and not drive down the wrong side of the straight.
I am amazed at how many people think moving over at the beginning of a straight is ok. I raced in GTC1 with Scotto, Burger, Savenor, Boyer and Jenks and I can't think of one time of someone doing a driving down the "wrong side of the straight" move. You also don't see this from pro drivers (ok, most pro drivers). Here's a classic one and these guys managed to have an epic battle and not drive down the wrong side of the straight.
#93
Your C1 example is a good one because I would suggest that the vast majority of the field were good to excellent drivers and racers. The cars were also all equal. I welcome someone in an equal car to take a turn-in from the inside of the track. I will over and under you or drive around you in the corner because you will not be able to take that turn effectively. C1 racing didn't involve goofy lines because the racers were too good to keep behind you that way. There was a lot of feinting, dodging, and squeezing. All of that is excellent race craft.
Your F1 video example from 1979 is funny to use in this context because those cars have about five "13" incidents in the final lap. You will also note numerous feints and dodges where the lead car moves slightly off line to defend. Heck, they are driving each other off track in that video!
What I think PCA is trying to eliminate is the danger of someone moving out in front of a car that has a lot of momentum and causing them to take evasive action to avoid rear-ending. But this is where the "one move" concept comes into play. If I see a guy with a run, I should be able to defend against that and choose which side I want them to attempt to use the momentum on. In most cases, if in the beginning or middle of a straight, the car with momentum will just drive by, anyway. Gums showed an example of the feint where he made the car in front defend one way but he went another. We should be able to do that in PCA. We should not be allowed to weave our way down the track attempting to stay ahead of someone.
#94
My interpretation of the defensive line is that it would be fine to move to the next apex side when at or near the braking zone. A block would be moving over to the next apex side while still on the straight. At Lime Rock this would translate to any move to the right before start finish would be considered a block. After start finish, its fine. (solely my own opinion).
At LR the turn onto the staight tracks out left and the apex at the end of the straight is on the right. I can see that moving over across the track after tracking out could be perceived as poor sportsmanship. What if the apex ahead was on the left where you tracked out coming onto the straight. If a racer stayed left all the way down the straight would that change your perspective? I ask because I did just that a few weeks ago at Willow Springs knowing the car behind me, who was in my class, was faster down the long straight. Had I moved over to the RH side of the straight he would have pulled next to me before the apex and passed me. The only way to survive his charge was to take away the inside line from track out. As it was he pulled next to me on the outside and almost passed me there....
#95
I am amazed at how many people think moving over at the beginning of a straight is ok. I raced in GTC1 with Scotto, Burger, Savenor, Boyer and Jenks and I can't think of one time of someone doing a driving down the "wrong side of the straight" move.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dr_6m...F5EEACDFE05419
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dr_6m...F5EEACDFE05419
Some day again, maybe
#96
I don't even have to watch that classic and epic vid from Dijon, it is etched in my brain.
And if you read this month's "Motor Sport" issue, a tribute to Villeneuve, you saw every driver of that time commenting how hard he drove but how fair and predictable he was. Everyone loved him for it, there was none of this "one move" nonsense. Yet he was still so hard to pass.
And if you read this month's "Motor Sport" issue, a tribute to Villeneuve, you saw every driver of that time commenting how hard he drove but how fair and predictable he was. Everyone loved him for it, there was none of this "one move" nonsense. Yet he was still so hard to pass.
#97
Hey Frank! :-)
Found this in Villineuve on his performance in a vastly inferior car in the 1981 Spanish Grand Prix:
I'd say "carefully positioning" his car means a defensive line. ;-), but not "blocking" by the description
Certainly a bunch of over slowing.
Found this in Villineuve on his performance in a vastly inferior car in the 1981 Spanish Grand Prix:
...Villeneuve carefully reduced the pace, taking all the time he needed in the slow corners where he couldn’t be passed, and using the Ferrari’s prodigious grunt to blast away on the straights. He held up the cars behind him to the extent that they stopped gaining on the next car to be lapped, Giacomelli’s Alfa Romeo.
Villeneuve’s defending was thorough but scrupulously fair: no sudden moves, no chops. He positioned his Ferrari carefully and played his one strong card – its straight-line speed – to perfection on every lap.
The cars behind were tripping over themselves in an effort to pass. Elio de Angelis’s Lotus caught up, making it a five-car train.
Laffite threw everything he had at the Ferrari but Villeneuve resisted him to the end. The five cars crossed the finishing line almost as one, separated by just 1.24 seconds.
“It wasn’t a race, it was a show,” complained Reutemann. “It was very slow, ridiculous, but there was nothing you could do.”
Villeneuve’s defensive tactics meant the average speed for the race was 3mph slower than it had been the year before.
It was a remarkable win – and one that would have been utterly impossible had his rivals had DRS.
Villeneuve’s defending was thorough but scrupulously fair: no sudden moves, no chops. He positioned his Ferrari carefully and played his one strong card – its straight-line speed – to perfection on every lap.
The cars behind were tripping over themselves in an effort to pass. Elio de Angelis’s Lotus caught up, making it a five-car train.
Laffite threw everything he had at the Ferrari but Villeneuve resisted him to the end. The five cars crossed the finishing line almost as one, separated by just 1.24 seconds.
“It wasn’t a race, it was a show,” complained Reutemann. “It was very slow, ridiculous, but there was nothing you could do.”
Villeneuve’s defensive tactics meant the average speed for the race was 3mph slower than it had been the year before.
It was a remarkable win – and one that would have been utterly impossible had his rivals had DRS.
Certainly a bunch of over slowing.
#99
Could someone explain what is considered blocking in PCA Club Racing? This past weekend the 12 car in front of me was black flagged for blocking, I just don't see it.
http://youtu.be/-tEQypQUTFc
Tim Lynn
http://youtu.be/-tEQypQUTFc
Tim Lynn
Last edited by M758; 05-02-2012 at 01:50 AM.
#100
A black flag is a very big deal. IMO, it should only be used when there is safety issue, or a significant potential for one. Penalties can be assessed post race, where they can be taken back, or modified, if need be. An in race black flag has just ruined the race, weekend, and potentially season of the racer receiving it, and can't be taken back.
#102
A black flag is a very big deal. IMO, it should only be used when there is safety issue, or a significant potential for one. Penalties can be assessed post race, where they can be taken back, or modified, if need be. An in race black flag has just ruined the race, weekend, and potentially season of the racer receiving it, and can't be taken back.
As the 2 cars were in the same class fighting for position, it appeared to me to be good, clean racing. As mentioned, Black Flag should not have interfered with their race; would have been easy to penalize afterwards and sort out with much more info from all parties involved, and impose an appropriate penalty if merited.
Regarding staying on or off line, I think in many cases there's a drafting issue to consider. I'm not an aero expert, but in my own experience, when I've been followed very closely by another car on the straight, as soon as they pop out to pass, I've felt my car slow down briefly, presumably from the air bubble now left behind me that takes a moment to refill/sort out. In equally running cars, IMHO its better to stay behind and close as long as possible. Also, I believe that passing another car also involves getting through its "wake" which may be more difficult than still air. "Popping out" gives the trailing car a brief advantage that may offset the wake challenge.
#103
A black flag is a very big deal. IMO, it should only be used when there is safety issue, or a significant potential for one. Penalties can be assessed post race, where they can be taken back, or modified, if need be. An in race black flag has just ruined the race, weekend, and potentially season of the racer receiving it, and can't be taken back.
It's our club folks. If this is going to continue to be an issue we need to get clarification and let the stewards know we want to race. I can tell you if i travelled 6 hours, took 3 days off of work, paid for tires, lodging, entry fees etc only to have my race cut short for "blocking" that no one else can see I'd think long and hard about where my next entry fee would go. It isn't worth the risk.
#104
#105
+2
It's our club folks. If this is going to continue to be an issue we need to get clarification and let the stewards know we want to race. I can tell you if i travelled 6 hours, took 3 days off of work, paid for tires, lodging, entry fees etc only to have my race cut short for "blocking" that no one else can see I'd think long and hard about where my next entry fee would go. It isn't worth the risk.
It's our club folks. If this is going to continue to be an issue we need to get clarification and let the stewards know we want to race. I can tell you if i travelled 6 hours, took 3 days off of work, paid for tires, lodging, entry fees etc only to have my race cut short for "blocking" that no one else can see I'd think long and hard about where my next entry fee would go. It isn't worth the risk.