PCA club race blocking?
05-01-2012, 01:42 PM
#62
Burning Brakes
Brian H discussed this at the orientation meeting for the Road Atlanta Race, but I can't remember what he said. If anyone is worried about this going forward, you should go to the meeting and ask about it.
Nothing I saw in these videos looks like blocking.
It is an interesting perspective that driving defensive lines are unsportsmanlike. Racing is not DE and a big part of racing is the skill of the driver. Clearly if a car is in front of you they deserve to be there. They also deserve the right to make you work to get around them.
If the fastest car is always supposed to win then why do we hold a race?
Nothing I saw in these videos looks like blocking.
It is an interesting perspective that driving defensive lines are unsportsmanlike. Racing is not DE and a big part of racing is the skill of the driver. Clearly if a car is in front of you they deserve to be there. They also deserve the right to make you work to get around them.
If the fastest car is always supposed to win then why do we hold a race?
A little off topic but as I recall the RA event "diving in" was also discussed. One of the drivers asked for a more clear definition especially going into 10A. The answer was the overtaking car in 10A (to the left) of the car being overtaken (on the line to the inboard side of the track) had to be ahead of the car being overtaken before the initial turn in. Huh? To me that's just not natural and defeats a late brake move. If I am "online" in 10A and someone jumps out from behind me to outbrake & overtake me it's incumbent on me to not turn into him, not expect him to give up because he's not ahead at the turn in.
05-01-2012, 01:42 PM
#63
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This doesn't mean you "give" someone the corner, but it does mean that you pick a side and you don't "put them off."
It's a good thing this topic continues to come up, because I can keep up a good list of who I'd like to race with and how I'm going to have to race both them and the people I'd rather not race with...
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05-01-2012, 02:03 PM
#64
Scott, we've talked about this before, and it has little to do with the OP, but most sensible and ethical drivers think that proper racing includes the tenet of "leaving racing room" for your competitor(s).
This doesn't mean you "give" someone the corner, but it does mean that you pick a side and you don't "put them off."
It's a good thing this topic continues to come up, because I can keep up a good list of who I'd like to race with and how I'm going to have to race both them and the people I'd rather not race with...
This doesn't mean you "give" someone the corner, but it does mean that you pick a side and you don't "put them off."
It's a good thing this topic continues to come up, because I can keep up a good list of who I'd like to race with and how I'm going to have to race both them and the people I'd rather not race with...
I don't like what you are intimating.
Where have I advocated not leaving racing room? Where did I say you should "put them off"? I don't recall suggesting you can weave you way down the track either.
There is a big difference between making someone work to pass you and blocking. If you drive a more defensive line and the person behind is on the "ideal line", you are going to be impeding his momentum. That appears to be "blocking" to the PCA.
The odds of us being on the same race track are nil....so you don't have to worry either way.
Scott
05-01-2012, 02:06 PM
#65
Rennlist Member
I am a Rookie PCA racer and this was my Licensing event. As others mentioned, I had the exact same experience in the Rookie meetings. I even asked the question to define defensive line and blocking. It was made clear that any single defensive move would be considered blocking, and furthermore, a defensive line, could and can also end your race as a blocking "line". Similar posture for "over aggressive" driving/passing.
I still need to learn a LOT about PCA CR, racecraft in general, and everything in between, and I am glad I have you veterans around to learn from, but this is probably the area that will present the biggest challenge to me....
I still need to learn a LOT about PCA CR, racecraft in general, and everything in between, and I am glad I have you veterans around to learn from, but this is probably the area that will present the biggest challenge to me....
05-01-2012, 02:37 PM
#66
Burning Brakes
I am a Rookie PCA racer and this was my Licensing event. As others mentioned, I had the exact same experience in the Rookie meetings. I even asked the question to define defensive line and blocking. It was made clear that any single defensive move would be considered blocking, and furthermore, a defensive line, could and can also end your race as a blocking "line". Similar posture for "over aggressive" driving/passing.
I still need to learn a LOT about PCA CR, racecraft in general, and everything in between, and I am glad I have you veterans around to learn from, but this is probably the area that will present the biggest challenge to me....
I still need to learn a LOT about PCA CR, racecraft in general, and everything in between, and I am glad I have you veterans around to learn from, but this is probably the area that will present the biggest challenge to me....
-mike
05-01-2012, 02:40 PM
#67
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Peter,
I don't like what you are intimating.
Where have I advocated not leaving racing room? Where did I say you should "put them off"? I don't recall suggesting you can weave you way down the track either.
There is a big difference between making someone work to pass you and blocking. If you drive a more defensive line and the person behind is on the "ideal line", you are going to be impeding his momentum. That appears to be "blocking" to the PCA.
The odds of us being on the same race track are nil....so you don't have to worry either way.
Scott
I don't like what you are intimating.
Where have I advocated not leaving racing room? Where did I say you should "put them off"? I don't recall suggesting you can weave you way down the track either.
There is a big difference between making someone work to pass you and blocking. If you drive a more defensive line and the person behind is on the "ideal line", you are going to be impeding his momentum. That appears to be "blocking" to the PCA.
The odds of us being on the same race track are nil....so you don't have to worry either way.
Scott
05-01-2012, 02:46 PM
#68
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I'm not pleased with the direction PCA appears to be moving with respect to club racing. From dictating a exxpensive spec slick for the GTC classes without polling the drivers first to redefining the term blocking, it appears PCA is fast moving toward becoming a 'nanny state' racing organization. I feel for those of you who geographically have limited options with respect to racing venues....
05-01-2012, 02:57 PM
#69
Did the driver drive the track poorly with respect to hitting apexes , etc ? For sure.
Was he guilty of blocking you ? IMHO, not even close.
Many flaggers, unless certified SCCA flaggers or those hired by the track (ie: NJMP), are volunteers . But none of them should ever be authorized to make an autonomous decision except for yellow, debris or the "faster cars are behind you" flag.
Decisions to fly the black flag, red flag and double yellow's generally come down from race contol and are transmitted to the flagging stations.
Had a PCA official been standing in the" starters stand" with a clear view of the straightaway it should have been evident no blocking was taking place...poor driving perhaps , even driving a defensive line ( driving off the preferred line)...but I never saw any evidence that he pulled over in front of you and you either had to brake or get out of the throttle.
I'm affraid who ever made this call might need to be sitting in the audience at the next drivers meeting or might take a moment to re-
Tom B.
Was he guilty of blocking you ? IMHO, not even close.
Many flaggers, unless certified SCCA flaggers or those hired by the track (ie: NJMP), are volunteers . But none of them should ever be authorized to make an autonomous decision except for yellow, debris or the "faster cars are behind you" flag.
Decisions to fly the black flag, red flag and double yellow's generally come down from race contol and are transmitted to the flagging stations.
Had a PCA official been standing in the" starters stand" with a clear view of the straightaway it should have been evident no blocking was taking place...poor driving perhaps , even driving a defensive line ( driving off the preferred line)...but I never saw any evidence that he pulled over in front of you and you either had to brake or get out of the throttle.
I'm affraid who ever made this call might need to be sitting in the audience at the next drivers meeting or might take a moment to re-
Tom B.
05-01-2012, 03:13 PM
#70
Race Director
Now there is a fine line between racing hard and racing dumb and all rookies need to be coached on the difference, but for whatever reason what you feel like you were told in your rookie school is simply wrong. Don't take it as being rude to you as I don't consider this to be your fault at all, but a failure of PCA rookie school.
05-01-2012, 03:26 PM
#71
To maintain fair competition,
the lead car must be aware that a car
behind could have had a faster exit
speed out of the last corner onto the
straight. Watching the mirrors is part
of the common sense awareness. We
do not follow the “one move rule”
which would give the lead car one
move to block a passing attempt.
Blocking occurs when you make a
move that changes your line and is
solely intended to impede an overtaking
car. You have an option to
use a defensive line but if you choose
that line, you must stay on that
line. Changing that line to prevent
passing is blocking. This normally
occurs entering or exiting the corner,
but blocking is also prohibited on
straights.
For example, driver P1 comes out
of a corner onto a straight and takes
a mid-track line. Because the driver
behind (P2) has set up her car to exit
the last corner with more speed, she
gains track position and closes the
distance to P1 from behind. P2 now
moves right to start a pass, but P1
has not checked the mirrors or has
decided to protect the position with
a move to the right. This is blocking!
To avoid contact P2 has to
drive off track.
Blocking is not fair competition.
It is unsafe, unpredictable,
frustrating, and often causes
racers to make difficult moves to
avoid contact or car damage.
05-01-2012, 03:31 PM
#72
Burning Brakes
I'm not pleased with the direction PCA appears to be moving with respect to club racing. From dictating a exxpensive spec slick for the GTC classes without polling the drivers first to redefining the term blocking, it appears PCA is fast moving toward becoming a 'nanny state' racing organization. I feel for those of you who geographically have limited options with respect to racing venues....
Either way-- if you can't drive defensively, it's not racing.
-mike
05-01-2012, 03:46 PM
#73
Rennlist Member
05-01-2012, 03:47 PM
#74
Race Director
From 11.3 CRN:
....
Blocking occurs when you make a
move that changes your line and is
solely intended to impede an overtaking
car. You have an option to
use a defensive line but if you choose
that line, you must stay on that
line. Changing that line to prevent
passing is blocking....
....
Blocking occurs when you make a
move that changes your line and is
solely intended to impede an overtaking
car. You have an option to
use a defensive line but if you choose
that line, you must stay on that
line. Changing that line to prevent
passing is blocking....
From 11.3 CRN:
For example, driver P1 comes out of a corner onto a straight and takes a mid-track line. Because the driver behind (P2) has set up her car to exit the last corner with more speed, she gains track position and closes the distance to P1 from behind. P2 now moves right to start a pass, but P1 has not checked the mirrors or has decided to protect the position with a move to the right. This is blocking! To avoid contact P2 has to drive off track.
For example, driver P1 comes out of a corner onto a straight and takes a mid-track line. Because the driver behind (P2) has set up her car to exit the last corner with more speed, she gains track position and closes the distance to P1 from behind. P2 now moves right to start a pass, but P1 has not checked the mirrors or has decided to protect the position with a move to the right. This is blocking! To avoid contact P2 has to drive off track.
05-01-2012, 04:01 PM
#75
Does this clear everything up?