Veloce Raptor

I know, as a site sponsor, I am not supposed to opine in threads like this. And when I have in the past, it was inappropriate, whether I was right or wrong with my observations. However, what you wrote above, Mike, is the ONLY reason that I have commented: because I am very concerned about the life-and-death safety of both Mark and anyone who might follow his approaches on safety matters.

We voluntarily choose to participate in an exhilirating (sp.?) but extremely dangerous sport. I will always go out of my way to advocate more safety rather than less...and it is often the little things that can separate the two.

Yes, I voluntarily choose to instruct in DE's in the DE "uniform" of the PCA regions for whom I instruct (region instructor polo shirt and pants) because the vast majority of cars in those situations are street cars (MUCH easier to get out of in a fire than a fully caged car)...and I am lazy & don't relish getting all sweaty hopping from car to car. However, when I coach, I always wear my racing "uniform": full 3-layer Nomex, shoes, gloves, balaclava, etc.

Same deal with the topic(s) of this thread and the 2 closed ones. My greatest concerns are (a) that Mark goes home intact to see his family after each session on track w/o relying on the "I've been OK so far except for some broken ribs" hope; and (b) that others follow the specific manufacturer (seat, harness, H&N restraint, etc.) safety guidelines produced from decades of worst-case laboratory and real world research, rather than dodgy stuff they may read on the internets.

So, in short, well said, Mike.

Peace out.

dan212

Seems like the product is very well named. Truth in marketing

kurt M

Close to the worst post I have read on Rennlist in a while. Mark IIRC you broke some ribs on track while using an outdated format seat and yet you say you are out there having safe fun? Well, OK then.

One of the best posts I have read in a while.
Asking questions and fighting with those that offer up answers is poor form.

Hit the Kibort alarm in the Rennlist Mod Command Center. Call in Haz-Mat in for a level 4 M.K. brain/bowel dump clean up and then close this thread.

OGRacing

So has anyone emailed/called and " Ask about the great story that goes with the name"?

Bill

4WHLDRFTN

onefastviking

I actually do know the answer here, guess it means I have been around way too long.

It was originally developed and used by a fairly well known Autocrosser/Autocross book author/instructor, for Auto crossing events. His name was Richard Turner, although he was known as "Dick Turner", thus "The Dick strap". He passed away a few years ago, but Google Dick Turner Autocross and you can find instructional videos he did and probably a lot more of his work, books written, etc.

The strap was obviously designed just for Autocross and designed as a addition to help keep straps on seats that they weren't really designed for. Also obvious that it was not designed to help in event of a crash with a wall, another car, etc etc, which isn't something they worry much about in parking lot autocrosses but something we as road racers do need to seriously address.

I will respond to a few other posts on here later but I must go to work now.

mark kibort

I too voluntarily instruct and help folks with safety equip as well as being safe myself. you wont see me in a car in short sleave shirts and probalby not without a suit on too.
My use of FIA approved HANS is safe. the design of my car's seat and belts are safe. im questioning the safety of the proper use of the older design base on what i know is safe. i tried the new hans at the track. the belt stays on better, but the feeling with the hans is not as safe , in my opinion than with belts direcly on your shoulders.

the use of the open ended steel ring, as seen by all, is not risking any functionality of the device. with or without the ring doesnt effect belt tension. it only improves the angle for which the belts attach to the shoulder points. (slight pressure to hold the belts together ) again, if you are worried aobut that, maybe you should be worried about your polo shirt not being flame retardant. (or the sewing holes from putting patches on your racing suit).

all in all, the HANS does what it is designed to do. be more concerned with those with old tethers, as those ARE dangerous. now with the slidding teathers, which helps vision 100%, what about their wear factor in the guide bars?? side to side movement over many yeas, wont those straps be compromized. This is what you think about when you have a few 'Strength and materials classes, rather than a degree in doing donuts in 4x4s)

those that know me and have worked with me at the track, know im all about playing safely. strong cages and safe cars, along good racing habits on the track. I come home each race safe (barring the honda that ran me into a wall at 100mph) safe and still drive my car to and from the track. over 15 years of doing this, so I would think there is a little more than luck involved.

this has been a good disucssion without your outbursts of random assumptions and put downs. anyone really wanting to discuss the safety aspects of the hans, has chimed in and I have picked up some good things. # 1, those sliding tethers need to be mandatory. its the next thing im buying ! The fixed ones are down right dangerous. If you have them, trade them out. legal or not.

AND, i prefer my used older HANS. it is much lighter than the ones I saw at the track this weekend (entry level models) and is a better fit for the correct size. it only lacks the "wings " for which ill have to figure out a way to keep the belts from creeping on the sides over the term of a race.

by the way, there is not one user of the HANS older version that i have talked to that doesnt have an issue with the straps sliding /falling off. )

lets end the put downs. it just shows you have small complex.
the bigger the put downs, the more emphatic you make them, the smaller you are in reality. sad you need to do that to make yourself feel better. dont worry , i got a thick skin!

mark kibort

It got heated up by those that want to hear them self talk

in actuality, i got what i needed, from the posts of those with constructive critisim, but the angles , FIA belts, distances were all correct. there is nothing being advocted that is dangerous. the seat being used again, could be the ONLY thing that is dangerous, and im taking my chances and have for a few years now with it. again, we all buy used race cars and who knows if any of the critical parts are cracked or compromzed.

Im done with this. ill live with the hassle of the older hans (that wasnt run over by a trailer, and is not 10 years old "as the list has told me".)
what i have found is i know why HANS made the wings. the CF versions are great, because they are light. and the straps sliding off the shoulders can be solved with velcro. Ill live with the comfort level that is less than belts alone to save my neck should i be involved in a higher g force event.

my one contribution should be an awarenss that the old teathers , if you have them on the older hans, should be tossed in the garbage. no way those should be allowed on the track IMHO.

thats it.

as VR said,

Peace -Out

4WHLDRFTN

BBMGT3

In the end, you are free to make your own choices within the regulations of your series, and then beyond that in cases to manufacturer recommendations. If, in the end, you feel your set-up is "correct", then you've made up your mind and thats that.

Personally I'm not sure how you can feel that way. The HANS/Harness are intended to immobilize your head and body beyond your head's natural range of movement. According to the photographs you've posted, your ability to move your body several inches, as well as the angle of recline, suggests that in the case of a hard frontal impact neither the harness nor the HANS will do their job. Not saying that any one of these is the sole source of the problem - you could probably manage a recline seat if you set up the remainder of the system to accommodate, and so on and so forth. However if you upright the seat a bit perhaps suddenly everything will fit into place. I'm no expert, so I'll stop here. And perhaps you've already addressed this, in which case I should also stop.

But don't make the mistake of thinking that because you've managed for so long that implies that everything was a-ok. Your ability to "get away with it" for 15 years says more about your skill as a driver, and, yes, your luck, than how safe your car was.

mark kibort

Thanks. yes there were some inaccuracies in the pictures, unfortunately they caused the stir. the seat is not optimal, but the car does require a certain amount of recline to work well (at least for me).
I do feel it is quite safe and those that see it at the track, can attest.
I also feel that the reclinded position causes the forward movement that im most concerned about, and those sliding teathers seem to fix the vision problem. still, i dont like the feel of the belts, even with all the components in optimal positions. But, ill have to live with it, because the hans is a requirement now.

thanks for the input.

mark

PJorgen

So, in an effort to get this conversation back on track, I have a question about TheDickStrap. I admit to being a non-racer and ignorant of much of the details of safety equipment, so pardon my naive question.

What is wrong with TheDickStrap? Looks like it would keep the shoulder belts in place. Assuming they are correctly anchored, wouldn't this be OK?

onefastviking

It was designed for parking lot Autocrosses, where the chances of contacting another car,wall, etc are almost nil.

All the race seat and race harness manufacturers recommend against anything other than a straight unobstructed path for harnesses thru clear and properly fitted and designed holes in race seats.

In an impact the harnesses will stretch and when they are folded or go around corners of seats or at improper angles, the potential for them to fail and or not properly restrain you goes up dramatically.

"The Dick Strap" had it's place for what it was, the "racing" it was used in, and the time frame it was developed. Please do not kid yourself and think this was recommended for any type of car to car or track racing. There is not any current sanctioning race body, that I currently know of, that would allow this device to be used.

onefastviking

BTW - I started this thread for the humor effect of it, I never intended it as a recommendation for this product or any other improperly used or improperly installed device, or systems of devices designed to work in conjunction with each other.

A few people took it for what it was and poked fun at me for even finding such a product. - To them, I say, "that's all you have" ?

I believe RL is a place to not only exchange great thoughts and ideas, pass on some knowledge from the more experienced Rennlisters, but also a place to entertain and have some light humor.

Wishing everyone a great day !

mglobe

You have both of my race cars. I'm not throwing the good schnizitz at you till I have them both back! I'm smarter than I look.