Nick Wong

Really? Not even Mobil1 factory fill? I find that hard to believe.

m73m95

Someone posted a question earlier, but it must have gotten glossed over....And I always heard the same thing.

Don't "racing" specific oils contain little or no detergents? Race cars change their oil much more frequently than street cars, so detergents aren't needed as much in racing.

Correct, or no?

chrisc

I couldn't find the Valvoline "good stuff not for racing VR1" at any of the above, had to order it from Keystone. I'm not blaming all of the oil companies who were forced to remove the ZDDP for environmental issues. Since I have an older engine that requires ZDDP I should have paid more attention to the API rating system.

67King

I don't believe this is true. Motul 300V and Millers can go 3,000 race miles between changes. However, I do know of one that becomes too acidic and needs to be changed every 500 miles or so. It is a good oil, but it is expensive, and it obviously doesn't last.

Absolutely. Mobil 1 was pretty good stuff 15 years ago, but it has been junk since Mobil 1 lost a court case against Castrol (see post #5 - Mobil 1 is now Group III). Plus they pay a nice big fat wad of cash to the OEM's for them to put that on their cars. You have to remember that the factory fill is a street oil, the cars are street cars, etc.

chrisc

Harry, know your Eng background in D-troit but come on, "Junk"? You really believe manufacturers like Porsche will prostitute their brand enough to risk expensive engines by using "junk" oil because of a payoff? Not saying there aren't probably better choices for extreme/racing applications but I can't buy the theory that the check is so big the manufacturers are willing to accept the risk to their products and reputations by endorsing/using a particular brand for normal applications.

For 20+ years I worked as a supplier of elastomeric products to the automotive industry and have seen first hand how much testing goes into all of the products that can be put into engines, transmissions etc. and just can't accept the payoff theory.

Nick Wong

Okay, I reread that post and all I got out of it was a Group III oil is good for lubrication, and that your engine went belly up after you switched from M1 to something else.

Not a big vote of confidence to switch from M1 in my opinion unless you can further elaborate on how a Group III oil like M1 factory fill, changed religiously every 4k miles, is inferior to a Redline, Motul etc. under the same intervals whether it is a street, track, or race environment.

On a related note, I can't find any real information on oil temps, what is considered a normal temp under race conditions, and the effect of oil pressure on said temps. Any thoughts?

Sterling Doc

On the same note, Porsche held a "meet the engineers" event at Road America a couple of years back in the Porsche Park, and the oil question was asked. The engineer said very clearly, that they used an off the shelf Mobil 1 oil in the Porsche Spyder - saying it was the same oil the put in their street cars/ fill - "you bring me a quart from the dealer, and I'll put it in the race car".

I realize this is hearsay, and not chemistry, but a pretty strong endorsement.
In the 944 Spec world we've had good results with various Mobil oils. Since the reformulation we've from the red top 15/50 to the motorcycle based oils - typically the 20/50 V-twin, sometimes the 10/40 if it's cool. We have one motor with over 300 hours on it locally that has only had rod bearings replaced - and they looked great!

hacker-pschorr

That's only two of the VR1 oil's.

The stuff in the light gray bottle is non-synthetic and sells for $5.50 a quart locally.

There is also a street legal synthetic that sells for $9 around here:
http://www.valvoline.com/products/co...ic-motor-oil/8 (you need to click on the sizes / grades tab at the bottom to see the 20w-50).

From the Valvoline site:

Q - Which oil has more zinc/ZDDP: VR1 or "Not Street Legal" racing oil?
A - Valvoline VR1 Racing Oil contains .13 percent of zinc and .12 percent of phosphorus compared to the Valvoline "Not Street Legal" Racing Oil which contains .14 percent of zinc and .13 percent of phosphorus."

http://www.valvoline.com/faqs/motor-oil/racing-oil/

Their site is rather confusing since two questions later is:
Q - Is VR1 a conventional oil, a synthetic or a blend?
A - Valvoline VR1 racing oil is a conventional, non-synthetic racing oil.


Which doesn't address the VR1 synthetic "for street use" I linked to. Somehwere I have a document from Valvoline that states the two synthetic VR1 oils have the same ZDDP, the only difference between the two are detergents.

Any comments on this? I always thought the same thing.

67King

I'm sorry, Chris. When I say "junk," I mean it specifically in the context of an oil appropriate for track usage. I have used Mobil 1 extensively in street cars, and would continue to do so if not for my affiliation with a competitor.

As for the payoff theory, and yes that is a theory, as neither company would ever publicly admit it, note how Mobil 1 uses it in marketing. And they used to say that it had to specifically be Mobil 1 until Amsoil threatened with a lawsuit (an OEM can't specifiy a brand of oil for maintenance when others meet their certification criterion unless the OEM pays for the oil). But note how carefully Mobil 1 does this - only in premium brands and at least at one time, the Corvette. Regardless, it is just a Group III, and it does not protect nearly as well as the Groups IV and V.

But yes, this goes on, and goes on everywhere. If you think Porsche is unwilling to put its brand image on the line for a dollar, I guess Exhibit A in my argument against that would be the Cayenne.

There is an article that was originally published in Race Engine Technology, Issue 015 in 2006. There is a section in there that lays out the different base stocks and the specific characteristics they have. I can attach it if people want me to, but it featured the brand my company will be selling (and note to admins, we may do the small business sponsor thing, but we are waiting on our shipment before we advertise - ship is due to hit the port on Saturday). Here are some exerps:

"Road car lubricants are not necessarily suitable for race cars. Road car lubricants are now being designed with two criteria in mind, which have no bearing on their use in motorsport: exhaust emissions and fuel economy. The introduction of engine exhaust catalysts and government legislation on fuel economy, have dictated that certain substances need to be controlled. Limitations on compounds containing sulphur and phosphorus, generally considered to be damaging to catalysts, are gradually being brought in. Unfortunately zinc dialkyldiothiophosphate, containing both sulphur and phosphorus, is a very good and inexpensive anti-wear agent but it is now steadily being replaced in road car engine oils.

In the United States, Corporate Average Fuel Economy (CAFE) regulations essentially require engine oils to shear down to combat inevitable thickening due to oxidation. For a race car lubricant maximum performance and maximum wear resistance at high engine loads are the main design factors and so formulations do not need to be compromised by emissions or CAFE fuel economy regulations."

67King

From same article referenced in post above on the difference between Groups I, II, III, IV, and V. (Note there are many, many variables on how hot oil gets in a race engine. If you never see over 200 degrees, you can use WD40 and get away wiht it (exaggerated for effect). If you get hotter than the coolant temp, then you probably want to use something better. I'd run 250 all day long with a good oil, and some oils are good to 300 - at which point you probably have other issues):

"In general base oils can be categorised by family type:
• Mineral oil – conventional oils derived directly from refining of crude
oils
• Hydrocracked (also referred to as Group III) – extra highly refined
base stocks
• Polyalphaolefines (PAO, sometimes referred to as Group IV)
– pure synthesized hydrocarbons
• Esters (Group V) – manufactured from a reaction between acids and
alcohols
While mineral oils are undoubtedly the cheapest type to manufacture,
they can have serious limitations for motorsport use. Poor thermal
stability resulting in a loss of viscosity and high oxidation degradation
as well as low film strength are surely good enough reasons to steer
away from these types of oils for competition use.
Hydrocracked products fall somewhere between the mineral and
PAO/Esters in terms of both price and performance. Still having some
light and volatile components, as well as a degree of wax (causing
thickening at sub zero temperatures), they contain a wide range of
chemical types. Frequently referred to, confusingly, as ‘synthetic’, they
are not to be confused with true synthetic lubricants. The latter, more
correctly labelled ‘full synthetic’ lubricants are oils made from Groups
IV and V products.
Full synthetic PAO basestock oils on the other hand are generally
highly paraffinic (of the generic formula Cn H(2n+2) and have a high
resistance to oxidation and very high viscosity indices (the viscosity
changes less with temperature). This makes them much better suited
to motorsport applications.
These PAO basestock oils also have lower volatility – which reduces
oil consumption – and a higher film strength, which gives them a load
bearing capacity less than six-times that of an equivalent mineral oil
although Millers Oils’ Martyn Mann is prepared to admit, “that does
depend on the test procedure”.
LUBRICANT BASESTOCK
Perhaps even more important is that they don’t ‘shear down’ easily
maintaining full film strength in the bearings and the cam/tappet
interface.
While mineral oils will be the cheapest to manufacture, Group 4 PAO
basestock is around five times more expensive and in very short supply.
Alongside these, the other constituent of the full synthetic oil will
be a blend of carefully selected esters. Esters are not derived from
crude oil unlike many other base oils. Formed from a reaction between
acids and alcohols they are they are used widely in gas turbine aircraft
engines. Although on the whole generally unsuited to engine lubricant
applications, selected products (for example carboxylic acid esters)
can be synthesized to give unique characteristics.
Esters have what is known as a ‘synergistic’ response and in a
balanced blend with PAO, provide extra load bearing capacity. A
definite case of the whole (that is the blend) being greater than the
sum of the parts. In so doing, this enables the amount of polymer or
viscosity modifier (VM) to be reduced. The practical result to this will be
reduced wear on highly loaded bearings, cams and so forth.
The high molecular polarity of esters when combined with PAO can
also enhance the ability of the engine lubricant to soften or dissolve
engine deposits improving internal engine cleanliness. Finally the
seal swell characteristics of the ester can be used to counteract the
propensity of PAO products to attack and harden elastomers in the
engine.
Early full synthetic PAO/ester blends often introduced crankshaft
oil seal leaks after a short period of use following an oil change.
Replacing a mineral oil with one of these new oils caused the
crankshaft oil seals, which had swollen as a result of chemical action
from the Group I product, to shrink and harden through an inadequate
balance of PAO and ester. Increasing the amount of ester and rebalancing
the formulation quickly solved the issues and although
anecdotal stories still abound, full synthetic lubricant formulations no
longer have sealing issues."

hacker-pschorr

Both 20w-50 VR1 in the black bottles have the same ZDDP. This is the "not for street use" and the street stuff.

The non-synthetic has lower ZDDP, not by much.

I sent Valvoline the following question and here is the answer:

I had to copy / paste this from the PDF he sent me. This is for the Street Use Synthetic VR-1 20w-50

Vis @ 100°C (cSt) = 20.0
Vis @ 40°C (cSt) = 147
Viscosity Index = 154
Spec Gravity @ 60°F = 0.856
Density (lbs/gal) = 7.14
Total Base No. = 8.5
Flash COC (°C) = 230
Pour Point (°C) = -36
CCS cP (°C) = 5000(-15C)
MRV TP-1 cP (°C) = 11,000(-20C)
Noack % off @ 250C = <15
Zinc/Phosphorus, m% = 0.14/0.13 which is the same as the 1400ppm/1300ppm listed above for the "not for street use" oil
Calcium, m% = 0.210
Sodium, m% = 0.049

bgiere

"not for street use" is stated because it has very low detergent levels...you can run it in street cars, change it out at around 2500-3500 miles and you will be fine.

BTW, 67King has really given us some nice info on the Miller oils...I'll be running them for the next race car change interval.

hacker-pschorr

See above, Valvoline recommends 500 miles with their non-street use oil.

chrisc

Thank you for the clarification. I checked with Amsoil and Mobil. Mobil 1 15-50 12/12 ppms Zinc & Phosphorus. Amsoil 15/14 ppms Zinc & Phosphorus, which puts VR1 right in the middle 14/13 ppms Zinc & Poshorus.

I called the "ask Mobil" line speaking with a nice gent who explained they get this question continuously. He said their research shows their numbers to be correct for older flat tappet, racing applications despite the trend by others to add higher contents of ZDDP, which they feel is unecessary.

67King

For clarification, Chris, those numbers you quote are all for the actual "racing" oils, and NOT the street oils, correct? I do not believe the EPA will allow cert above 800 ppm. Off memory.