Horus2000

Here's a (very) lay man's limited experience....
My mechanic/crew chief just switched my 951 over to Motul after the last refresh and we've been very happy with it.

And this weekend we ran our never refreshed '88 944 NA chump car with 180k on the odometer on Motul in a 12 hour enduro on Saturday. We used about a quart. Changed the oil overnight and ran the 6hour on Sunday (minus and hour or so for a gear box swap).

I'll be running Motul all season in both cars for sure.

analogmike

>>When I first got the car, I used Mobil 1. Then at the advice of some guys of whom you've all heard, I started to run Valvoline VR1, the stuff you buy at Napa, before I got in the business and learned <<

Is that Valvoline oil junk? I bought a case for my '73 911 because they had a huge rebate.

dbryant61

LOL. My thoughts exactly. Keep it under 300hp and you MIGHT be OK.

67King

There are multiple lines of "VR-1." The "good" stuff has "not for street use" on the label. It has lower levels of ZDDP, which your engine, IMHO, really needs. This is the "good" VR1 - http://www.valvoline.com/products/co...ng-motor-oil/9

On my engine, there are three factors: First, that I had just installed Glyco rod bearings in the engine. I have since found out they had some quality control issues. Second, last August, I had a coolant leak, and the engine got hot a few times - I never let it get in the red, but I did have to add a fair amount of water between sessions. Finally, I did not understand that there are multiple types of VR-1 when I took the advice of the guy I referenced. My fault, and it may have contributed.

So, I apologize for the scare. But again, I do still think that most of the higher volume name brands people know are not nearly as good as the Millers, Joe Gibbs, Torco, and Motul. And even in some of those, some of the lab results of the virgin oil have shown that they do not meet the viscosity specificatoins they claim (not for all and not in all viscosities).

winders

It's hard to beat Red Line 40wt Racing Oil (15w-40) for use in a race car.

http://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=15&pcid=1

It uses a polyol ester (Group V) base stock and has ~2400 ppm zinc and ~2500 ppm phosphorus.

Heck, the price is even reasonable...especially if you have a friend that is a Red Line reseller.

Scott

67King

All good oils use a combination of Groups III (hydrocracked petroleum), IV (PAO), and V (ester) base stocks. Ester is not as good as PAO with heat. PAO has inferior lubricity to ester and hydrocracked. Ester is also polar, as is ZDDP. Anything over about 1250ppm ZDDP becomes detremental, as the purpose of ZDDP is to be wiped away after a thin layer is deposited. Of course, that also assumes that elevated levels of ester base stock do not keep it from getting to the metal surface, as the two compete for that against each other. Elevated ZDDP levels will cause a buildup, which leads to drag.

I based my recommendations on oil film thicknesses throughout a heat range. I was shocked at how poorly many highly regarded brands performed. I won't let brands I did not list near my track car. Obviously, I am going to use Millers since I sell it, but I'm not going to say everything else out there is junk.

KaiB

Interesting.

So I guess good old Brad Penn green is out? I'd prefer not to see a war here, but am curious.

67King

My comments are specific to synthetic. I know a lot of folks like Brade Penn, and I think that their high ZDDP content is why.

winders

67King,

Come on. Are you saying that Red Line synthetic racing oil is not a good oil? You don't know more than the scientists at Red Line. Or are you claiming that you do? Red Line has a stellar reputation and a significant positive track record.

Scott

67King

Scott, I apologize that my intent is not so clear. I am trying to educate people here. I have seen some good oils, and I will post some friction and oil film testing results I have seen from what would constitute good oils, and what would constitute bad oils tomorrow.

Marketing plays a strong role in what goes in oil in many cases. ZDDP is a hot button now, as is ester, so companies are using those things as marketing tools, and it affects the actual content. It is NOT a case of "more is better." But as I have pointed out, there are reasons combinations of base stocks are used in all good oils. And that would almost certainly include Red Line, even though they all call out ester. Guess what? Millers only calls out tri-ester in their marketing materials, too. Doesn't mean there's no PAO or Group III. The highest ester content I can think of now is 20% (not Millers).

As for the scientists and who knows what, I work, albeit indirectly, with a few of them, including the top scientist at one company. The guys I'm talking about are working with some F1 teams in development, and yes, it has already trickled down. I was brought in by my business partner because I used to do engine development for an OEM, and I did some stuff for him. So I'm not some run of the mill troll with a keyboard and free time.

If you want to disagree with me, fine. I'd welcome a good, fact based conversation. And I am very aware that there are always multiple ways to skin a cat, and different companies may take drastically different approaches to solve the same problem. However, I am sorry, but I don't consider repetition of marketing materials pertinent. As I said, I am trying to educate people.

Gary R.

I tried BP and found my engine temps were about 20% higher than I remembered when using M1. I switched back and they went back down. Not sure why, but it is what it is. I now use M1 V-Twin in 20W50, high ZDDP and good protection.

bgiere

67King seems to know his stuff, I've studied oils and their various compositions for years. I have used and tested most of the popular race oils...I have not used Millers but am tempted to run it for a season and then look at the internals on my 944 GTS car. My best results, verified with UOA's, have been with Redline oils...in particular they have allowed me to run a lower viscosity on the 964 and reduce the oil temps...too much heat (wasted energy) is created from churning a thicker oil...I too experienced a little higher than normal oil tempos using Brad Penn 20w50 but it did not seem to increase wear.

rlm328

As he said earlier he is now in the business and has pallets to sell. Amazing he is not listing himself as a sponsor.

gab997

67King I am currently running the Amsoil 15-50 Dominator Syntehic Racing oil. I have tried to find more information on the oil. I know that it has a higher ZDDP than others. I would like to know how it compares to the Motul/Miller etc.

67King

We are looking into becoming sponsors at a couple of sites. But as of right now, there are about 5 total cases of the stuff in the US. Half will be at a dyno shop this weekend as we do some testing to verify some claims. We are getting orders together to fill pre-orders from some of our dealers, as well as some we expect to move. It is very much a bootstrap effort, so we will be very careful in how we advertise in teh near term. SPonsorship would be a big expense at this stage.

Having said that, I have tried to be careful to not promote our stuff over other good oils because of that. I have mentioned several brands that are good oils, in addition to ours, in an attempt to be as objective as I can. I have not intended to advertise this, and only mentioned the name when I was asked where I was getting it. If I have come across as subjective towards what we sell, I apologize.

Will try to find out what I can tomorrow when I have it in front of me, and PM it to you.