Circuit Motorsports

If it isn't in the book then it's open to being interpreted different ways during a 13/13 meeting and that is not fair to anyone involved. It needs to be in the book.

Phokaioglaukos

One thing it would change is that those who have not attended an orientation meeting or who do not recall a meeting or who recall it incorrectly would have a definite statement of the rule. I encourage you to put it in the book. Other sanctioning bodies do--see the quotations in the original post.

I'm not sure what the difference is between "having" a corner and "owning" a corner. I do have an idea of "racing room" and I concur that every driver owes it to every other driver, but the devil in in the details. I applaud the idea of making the application of the rule and objective as possible, and I believe that writing the rule in the book will help with that. In the meantime I will read the past year's worth of Club Racing News and the View from the Tower columns.

As to judging the corner at turn in, consider a 90° bend. What happens when two cars are near each other coming into the bend and the outside car is in the lead and elects an early turn-in and apex? Does that car "have" the corner and the inside car must back out? My concept of racing room is that if there is reasonable overlap of the two cars when the first car to turn in does so (reasonable being maybe at least 30-50% overlap), then the outside, early-turning car must leave at least 3/4 car width of the racing surface for the inside car to traverse. Driving to the edge of the racing surface and either forcing the inside car to back out, go agricultural or contact the outside car is not leaving racing room.

Veloce Raptor

In Bryan's defense, I will say this: a couple of years ago I was given a provisional PCA race license based on other active licenses I held at the time such as FIA. Nevertheless, I still had to attend the orientation meeting for rookies, provisionals like myself, and those on a 13. Provisionals only had to stay in the meeting for ~30 minutes. But it was made VERY clear to me what the passing rules were, and they directly jibed with whhat Bryan posted above. And I still remember them clearly.

Nevertheless, it cannot hurt & is simply good business practice to codify them in the rule book.

winders

I think these two quotes from Bryan answer that question:

"If they are even + or – they should share the corner."

"Now if you are chasing someone and continue your pass attempt when you are not going to get even by turn in but you might get a couple of feet of overlap prior to the door being closed completely with the guy driving a normal line did you really earn anything? Aren’t you really just being a bully?"

Scott

Phokaioglaukos

You guys are quick! I revised my question, in hopes of clarifying it, whilst you were typing!

No need to defend Bryan. I did not think I was attacking him and I certainly did not intend to.

"If they are even + or – they should share the corner." If that is the requirement for the leading car to give the following car racing room, it is not consistent with the racing I have thus far done.

winders

What have you experienced?

Scott

Phokaioglaukos

"So far I've raced under UK and German FIA rules and SCCA rules in the US...."

I think the key difference is the amount of overlap that requires one car to give the other car room on the racing surface. Being "even" (even "even + or -") is more overlap than I think other sanctioning bodies require.

Potomac-Greg

As a data point, I recently finished SCCA 3 day competition school and passing rules were not discussed at all. There was a comprehensive test on the GCR (which offers the "racing room" concept as the sole guidance on passing), but then we were all just turned loose on track with open passing.

PS: I'm not criticizing the school -- it was great -- just pointing out that the passing rules are not core curriculum.

ProCoach

Was that DC Region's school? I'm surprised. In my NC Region schools, that was central. As Bryan described it, too.

Potomac-Greg

I should clarify that I'm only speaking about my run group (open wheel and sports racers). And no doubt the instructors would have discussed passing if it had been raised in the classroom. It just never came up. (Yes, DC Region.)

In truth, we had such a mixed group that competitive passing was relatively rare. We had a Formula Atlantic, Formula Ford, a couple of D Sports Racers, a few Formula Vees, F500 and three SRFs... Plenty of passing but much of it was uncontested.

MRW

I've been following this discussion with interest. As a solid mid-pack racer with just five years' experience, I have to say that so much of what is being discussed comes down to judgement and common sense; the need for a clearly defined "rule" is, I suppose, necessary to separate the combatants and lay blame in the event of an incident, but when we're on the track together, I'd never rely soley on a rule to pass or be passed. When I started out, good friends (who are good racers) took me aside and pointed out that I was making it too easy for people to get by, wrecking my momentum and spoiling any chance I had at a good race with people of like ability. As they said, the faster guys will get by. With seat time, I began to see the track and the action around me a bit more clearly. I also know who the faster guys are, and make an effort to let them through while keeping my own race going. In terms of passing, I'm more confident in myself and in the guys I race with, and I try to have a plan in case I get chopped. Last year at Road America, I raced a guy in the sprint and tried for five laps to get by, couldn't do it. Stuck my nose in at Canada corner on the last lap, and he promptly cut it off. I laughed to myself- he was absolutely correct, and was having none of my lame-*** move, but I was ready when he came down, and followed him meekly to the finish. First sprint race at the Glen recently, followed a fast D car and made an inside pass at turn one; the car I passed gave me room, but little else. I made it stick, and assumed he'd fall in behind as we entered turn two, but damned if he didn't plant himself on my left door handle and race me side-by-side up the hill. As we got to the top, I gave him the room he needed at the apex left, and we split a slower car as we went right onto the back straight. Either one of us could have backed off, but no need-we gave each other the room we needed, and not a bit more. Great stuff, and great racing- tough, unyielding, but considerate and fair. Had a great chat and laugh with the other driver afterward. The point of my stories is that, in each case, common sense and good judgement was the key. Not always gonna happen, that's for sure, but it sure is fun racing guys with that attitude.

ProCoach

AWESOME POST! Now, THAT'S Racing!

Veloce Raptor

You've learned a lot in 5 years, grasshopper!

K964

OT, but really digging your car in your avatar!!! How long have you owned it?

kurt M

No kidding. I have seen guys far more happy at the end of a race having had had a good clean fight than making an extra pass or 2.