Veloce Raptor

Ah...the Holy Grail question!

I think many of the reasons there appear to be "different lines" is that in DE, we are taught that later apexes are safer, especially for novices. And they are. We are also taught to sort of square off corners in order to extend the straightaways. As folks get better, especially at the top tier, they realize the benefits of gentler arcs around corners. of prepositioning the car at entry to help it work in the corner & to prevent it from entering a corner pointed away from the direction of the corner, of earlier turn ins with a gentler steering angle, and of the brakes as a tool to help direct the directional attitude of the car. In addition, they are not scared of huge entry speeds into corners....and the adjustments to lines that these entry speeds require. They know what the car is going to do before it happens, and are already adjusting, and again this can manifest itself in the form of widely varying lines, sometimes lap to lap looking for grip.

They are able to sense second by second & inch by inch all the myriad things the car is telling them, and especially what those 4 little tiny contact patches are doing, and adjust accordingly. they are much more comfortable near and at the level of adhesion & the vehicle's full potential. And they are able to "slow down" the filmstriip of what they see in the windshield so that the rush of things coming at them (so overwhelming to less experienced drivers at lesser speeds) is part of the flow in their minds & bodies.

pontifex4

That is a nice piece of writing. Excellent thread!

sbelles

What's be best way to compensate for my lack of LSD in tight turns? Besides installing one that is. The Hairpin at Sebring and Oak Tree at VIR come to mind. Late? early? I tried varying my line last time I was at VIR but my data seems inconclusive. I guess there isn't necessarily one way to get the best exit speed.

mark kibort

you kind of are a the mercy of grip, of the inside wheel. To not have it lift up as much, you can stiffen the front swaybar. Attack the turn as all of them are really late apexes with a lot of trail braking, so that when you are ready to get on the gas, you are pointed as straight as possble. dont let the tires runaway spinning. Its a tough one to deal with, I know.

Get an LSD when you can. it will make you very happy!

Mark

cannon1000

Some of these suggestions are pretty cerebral - and I can't wait to take what you are saying and try them on the track. But what about fundamentals...and I mean super-basic stuff that is taken for granted and bad habits from driving on the road have caused us.

Such as hand positions. How to handle steering wheel on sharp tight corners (feed or hand over hand, etc). Feet (heel-toe kinda stuff), seat and hand position (For example, driving daily - I want to be comfortable, but I notice in professional racing - you are very close to the steering wheel).

Especially as an instructor...when you are riding with that guy that has never been on a track before...what are you looking at? What are suggestions you make before you even roll out on the track? What are dumb things that you probably laugh at quietly that us beginners do without knowing better.

mark kibort

There is a lot of good advice here. The one thing that I think is most important staring out, is the hands. having them firmly in place and not moving postion except for shifts, is key for a foundation. Autocross, ice driving, snow, are all much different stories where hand over hand is used. In Roadracing, I dont think there is any place for it and see it as a root cause in spins, and not beng able to recover from oversteer conditions.
Thats one, im sure other have a bunch more.

Veloce Raptor

Trail brake more and deeper! Especially at T7 at Sebring! Get the rear end to do more of the rotation, sooner, and you can straighten the steering wheel sooner and thus get on power w/o the inside wheel spinning so much.

I don't laugh at anybody at the track, even privately. After all, we ALL started as beginners!! For a total newbie, I like to "interview" them, find out what they have done to their car, why they are at the track, if they have friends and/or family there, what they do for a living, etc. This helps me assess how they learn, and what their mindset may be (IE, if they have a buddy in a higher run group, there may be some competitive aspects at play that will appear on track). Seating position is a big thing, and is usually foreign to beginner who drive the Ghetto Slouch on the street. Looking ahead. Thinking. Not being upset with mistakes. Trusting the instructor. Etc.

Steering wheel should be held approximately 9 & 3 for all corners, IMO, unless you are turning the wheel more than 180 degrees. I have not found a corner on any track yet where I have to take my hands off the wheel, although I have by no means been to every track. However, in the paddock, or when you are using incredibly high steering angles at low speed (autocross perhaps) shuffling is sometimes the only way to go. Yes, closer to the wheel on track than on the street--more control, less fatigue, easier to steer with palms/fingertims rather than arms/shoulders.

Larry Herman

What Dave wrote here is the kernal of ultimate truth in where the difference lies. The true "pro" driver has developed the ability to understand what the car will do, recognize where it will happen and sense it at the earliest moment. As a result, their driving is more anticipatory rather than reactionary. They are truely ahead of the car.

Also, years of developing car control does not hurt either.

Mark Dreyer

Hi Dave, I've used a top notch pro driver a couple times at Sebring for coaching. I love the guy and have benefited tremendously from his help. I had done a previous coaching day with another coach. While I didn't appreciate that coach's style in terms of his attitude (shouting doesn't work for me), I did pick up some pointers which the pro racer didn't give me, particularly in terms of turn in reference points in which the shouter coach had some excellent pointers. That got me to thinking. I have found that by switching trainers in the gym, I get some muscles aching that never ached before because of the natural difference in preferred exercises among the different trainers. So this leads up to my question. Do you feel that a guy like me would benefit from hiring different coaches or is it best to stick with someone you like and who is helping you progress? I was thinking of hiring you for a day at Sebring and wondered what you thought about the concept of using different coaches at the same track?

Veloce Raptor

Larry...thank you!!

Mark, I do believe that serious drivers benefit from multiple sources of information. While it is comfortable to stick with someone we like & who is making a real difference, it gets too easy to fall into a mild cult of personality IMO. Quite often, folks who have regularly worked with Coach A for a while, and made huge progress, often learn a whole new set of skill nuances by working with Coach B for a day or two. This does not preclude going back to Coach A for the long term relationship, and usually this is a good approach. Looking at it differently....why limit yourself?

A guy I regularly coach also has gotten occasional input from another coach (same track), and has benefitted from it, which is the #1 objective, and the places he benefitted compliment the things he & I have worked on in his progression to becoming a very good driver. Another guy was coached regularly by very good coach, but he decided to work with me recently (same track) before a big race. He also benefitted (and posted about it on RL) after setting a new personal & track record. So, like you see at the gym, it can be a good thing. And it should NOT hurt the relationship with the coach you like & have worked so much with--if it does, there is a bigger issue at play.

I would love the opportunity to work with you!!

RickBetterley

First timers? I love first timers. Gives me an opportunity to get them started on the right foot and share in their new-found passion.
3 things we probably all look at are vision, seat and hand position, and calmness (or lack thereof).
We don't laugh at students - either to their face, behind their backs, and definitely not on Rennlist.

mglobe

+1000 It just doesn't happen. As an instructor, I really don't care how talented or untalented my students are. I just want them to improve and have fun.

Mark Dreyer

Thanks, Dave. I am going to do some things to Boxilla in the upcoming summer months when it is so brutally hot down here in Florida as to make track days not so enjoyable. I plan to install a cage and a hardtop, and perhaps a LSD. I'll be in touch on maybe doing a fall event when the weather cools a bit! Or I may book with you sooner if you agree to bring that gal in your avatar! LOL

I'm enjoying this thread!

Seth Thomas

Bob I am going to add this edit to your statement because I think in a 911 this is more appropriate language.

In faster corners, it is sometimes useful to breathe the throttle to give the front end more grip at turn-in.

High speed turns may not requite you to lift completely off the throttle especially in 911s. I like to use the term breathe on the throttle because it is better defines how much movement to use on the throttle pedal. 50% throttle to 30% throttle is a breathe and 50% to 0% is a lift in most people's eyes.

Larry Herman

TBDs have no affect on braking. I ran a Quaife unit in my '84 Carrera. LSDs have a very positive, stabilizing affect on braking and turn entry on the brakes. They will by design cause more understeer under hard acceleration. Having had a great LSD (4 plate cup car) in my RSA, I would never consider a TBD again. If I wanted to both autocross and track one car, I'ld get some fully adjustable sway bars so that I could loosen up the back for autocrossing, and tighten up the car for the track.