ASK THE COACH
#151
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From: All Ate Up With Motor
Dave,
if you would - can you put in here a list of some core principles that pro guys use, as I and a lot of folks I personally know had a very similar impression like 'I just drove with a pro guy, he was amazingly fast and his lines were nowhere near to what I used to do'. Is it possible to 'summarize' what is it they do what we do not do?
Really, it is very little info out there of how one should 'draw a line' around depending of various changing factors and it takes heck of a mental toll to go from 'static' model into 'dynamic', especially on a track you run most of the time. But I would prefer to listen about that than to say too much of my own non-sense.
if you would - can you put in here a list of some core principles that pro guys use, as I and a lot of folks I personally know had a very similar impression like 'I just drove with a pro guy, he was amazingly fast and his lines were nowhere near to what I used to do'. Is it possible to 'summarize' what is it they do what we do not do?
Really, it is very little info out there of how one should 'draw a line' around depending of various changing factors and it takes heck of a mental toll to go from 'static' model into 'dynamic', especially on a track you run most of the time. But I would prefer to listen about that than to say too much of my own non-sense.
I think many of the reasons there appear to be "different lines" is that in DE, we are taught that later apexes are safer, especially for novices. And they are. We are also taught to sort of square off corners in order to extend the straightaways. As folks get better, especially at the top tier, they realize the benefits of gentler arcs around corners. of prepositioning the car at entry to help it work in the corner & to prevent it from entering a corner pointed away from the direction of the corner, of earlier turn ins with a gentler steering angle, and of the brakes as a tool to help direct the directional attitude of the car. In addition, they are not scared of huge entry speeds into corners....and the adjustments to lines that these entry speeds require. They know what the car is going to do before it happens, and are already adjusting, and again this can manifest itself in the form of widely varying lines, sometimes lap to lap looking for grip.
They are able to sense second by second & inch by inch all the myriad things the car is telling them, and especially what those 4 little tiny contact patches are doing, and adjust accordingly. they are much more comfortable near and at the level of adhesion & the vehicle's full potential. And they are able to "slow down" the filmstriip of what they see in the windshield so that the rush of things coming at them (so overwhelming to less experienced drivers at lesser speeds) is part of the flow in their minds & bodies.
#152
They are able to sense second by second & inch by inch all the myriad things the car is telling them, and especially what those 4 little tiny contact patches are doing, and adjust accordingly. they are much more comfortable near and at the level of adhesion & the vehicle's full potential. And they are able to "slow down" the filmstriip of what they see in the windshield so that the rush of things coming at them (so overwhelming to less experienced drivers at lesser speeds) is part of the flow in their minds & bodies.
#153
What's be best way to compensate for my lack of LSD in tight turns? Besides installing one that is. The Hairpin at Sebring and Oak Tree at VIR come to mind. Late? early? I tried varying my line last time I was at VIR but my data seems inconclusive. I guess there isn't necessarily one way to get the best exit speed.
#154
you kind of are a the mercy of grip, of the inside wheel. To not have it lift up as much, you can stiffen the front swaybar. Attack the turn as all of them are really late apexes with a lot of trail braking, so that when you are ready to get on the gas, you are pointed as straight as possble. dont let the tires runaway spinning. Its a tough one to deal with, I know.
Get an LSD when you can. it will make you very happy!
Mark
Get an LSD when you can. it will make you very happy!
Mark
What's be best way to compensate for my lack of LSD in tight turns? Besides installing one that is. The Hairpin at Sebring and Oak Tree at VIR come to mind. Late? early? I tried varying my line last time I was at VIR but my data seems inconclusive. I guess there isn't necessarily one way to get the best exit speed.
#155
Some of these suggestions are pretty cerebral - and I can't wait to take what you are saying and try them on the track. But what about fundamentals...and I mean super-basic stuff that is taken for granted and bad habits from driving on the road have caused us.
Such as hand positions. How to handle steering wheel on sharp tight corners (feed or hand over hand, etc). Feet (heel-toe kinda stuff), seat and hand position (For example, driving daily - I want to be comfortable, but I notice in professional racing - you are very close to the steering wheel).
Especially as an instructor...when you are riding with that guy that has never been on a track before...what are you looking at? What are suggestions you make before you even roll out on the track? What are dumb things that you probably laugh at quietly that us beginners do without knowing better.
Such as hand positions. How to handle steering wheel on sharp tight corners (feed or hand over hand, etc). Feet (heel-toe kinda stuff), seat and hand position (For example, driving daily - I want to be comfortable, but I notice in professional racing - you are very close to the steering wheel).
Especially as an instructor...when you are riding with that guy that has never been on a track before...what are you looking at? What are suggestions you make before you even roll out on the track? What are dumb things that you probably laugh at quietly that us beginners do without knowing better.
#156
There is a lot of good advice here. The one thing that I think is most important staring out, is the hands. having them firmly in place and not moving postion except for shifts, is key for a foundation. Autocross, ice driving, snow, are all much different stories where hand over hand is used. In Roadracing, I dont think there is any place for it and see it as a root cause in spins, and not beng able to recover from oversteer conditions.
Thats one, im sure other have a bunch more.
Thats one, im sure other have a bunch more.
Some of these suggestions are pretty cerebral - and I can't wait to take what you are saying and try them on the track. But what about fundamentals...and I mean super-basic stuff that is taken for granted and bad habits from driving on the road have caused us.
Such as hand positions. How to handle steering wheel on sharp tight corners (feed or hand over hand, etc). Feet (heel-toe kinda stuff), seat and hand position (For example, driving daily - I want to be comfortable, but I notice in professional racing - you are very close to the steering wheel).
Especially as an instructor...when you are riding with that guy that has never been on a track before...what are you looking at? What are suggestions you make before you even roll out on the track? What are dumb things that you probably laugh at quietly that us beginners do without knowing better.
Such as hand positions. How to handle steering wheel on sharp tight corners (feed or hand over hand, etc). Feet (heel-toe kinda stuff), seat and hand position (For example, driving daily - I want to be comfortable, but I notice in professional racing - you are very close to the steering wheel).
Especially as an instructor...when you are riding with that guy that has never been on a track before...what are you looking at? What are suggestions you make before you even roll out on the track? What are dumb things that you probably laugh at quietly that us beginners do without knowing better.
#157
Thread Starter
Rennlist Member
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 41,898
Likes: 1,737
From: All Ate Up With Motor
What's be best way to compensate for my lack of LSD in tight turns? Besides installing one that is. The Hairpin at Sebring and Oak Tree at VIR come to mind. Late? early? I tried varying my line last time I was at VIR but my data seems inconclusive. I guess there isn't necessarily one way to get the best exit speed.
Some of these suggestions are pretty cerebral - and I can't wait to take what you are saying and try them on the track. But what about fundamentals...and I mean super-basic stuff that is taken for granted and bad habits from driving on the road have caused us.
Such as hand positions. How to handle steering wheel on sharp tight corners (feed or hand over hand, etc). Feet (heel-toe kinda stuff), seat and hand position (For example, driving daily - I want to be comfortable, but I notice in professional racing - you are very close to the steering wheel).
Especially as an instructor...when you are riding with that guy that has never been on a track before...what are you looking at? What are suggestions you make before you even roll out on the track? What are dumb things that you probably laugh at quietly that us beginners do without knowing better.
Such as hand positions. How to handle steering wheel on sharp tight corners (feed or hand over hand, etc). Feet (heel-toe kinda stuff), seat and hand position (For example, driving daily - I want to be comfortable, but I notice in professional racing - you are very close to the steering wheel).
Especially as an instructor...when you are riding with that guy that has never been on a track before...what are you looking at? What are suggestions you make before you even roll out on the track? What are dumb things that you probably laugh at quietly that us beginners do without knowing better.
Steering wheel should be held approximately 9 & 3 for all corners, IMO, unless you are turning the wheel more than 180 degrees. I have not found a corner on any track yet where I have to take my hands off the wheel, although I have by no means been to every track. However, in the paddock, or when you are using incredibly high steering angles at low speed (autocross perhaps) shuffling is sometimes the only way to go. Yes, closer to the wheel on track than on the street--more control, less fatigue, easier to steer with palms/fingertims rather than arms/shoulders.
Last edited by Veloce Raptor; 05-20-2011 at 08:56 AM. Reason: typo
#158
They know what the car is going to do before it happens, and are already adjusting, and again this can manifest itself in the form of widely varying lines, sometimes lap to lap looking for grip.
They are able to sense second by second & inch by inch all the myriad things the car is telling them, and especially what those 4 little tiny contact patches are doing, and adjust accordingly. they are much more comfortable near and at the level of adhesion & the vehicle's full potential.
They are able to sense second by second & inch by inch all the myriad things the car is telling them, and especially what those 4 little tiny contact patches are doing, and adjust accordingly. they are much more comfortable near and at the level of adhesion & the vehicle's full potential.
Also, years of developing car control does not hurt either.
__________________
Larry Herman
2016 Ford Transit Connect Titanium LWB
2018 Tesla Model 3 - Electricity can be fun!
Retired Club Racer & National PCA Instructor
Past Flames:
1994 RS America Club Racer
2004 GT3 Track Car
1984 911 Carrera Club Racer
1974 914/4 2.0 Track Car
CLICK HERE to see some of my ancient racing videos.
Larry Herman
2016 Ford Transit Connect Titanium LWB
2018 Tesla Model 3 - Electricity can be fun!
Retired Club Racer & National PCA Instructor
Past Flames:
1994 RS America Club Racer
2004 GT3 Track Car
1984 911 Carrera Club Racer
1974 914/4 2.0 Track Car
CLICK HERE to see some of my ancient racing videos.
#159
Hi Dave, I've used a top notch pro driver a couple times at Sebring for coaching. I love the guy and have benefited tremendously from his help. I had done a previous coaching day with another coach. While I didn't appreciate that coach's style in terms of his attitude (shouting doesn't work for me), I did pick up some pointers which the pro racer didn't give me, particularly in terms of turn in reference points in which the shouter coach had some excellent pointers. That got me to thinking. I have found that by switching trainers in the gym, I get some muscles aching that never ached before because of the natural difference in preferred exercises among the different trainers. So this leads up to my question. Do you feel that a guy like me would benefit from hiring different coaches or is it best to stick with someone you like and who is helping you progress? I was thinking of hiring you for a day at Sebring and wondered what you thought about the concept of using different coaches at the same track?
#160
Thread Starter
Rennlist Member
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 41,898
Likes: 1,737
From: All Ate Up With Motor
Hi Dave, I've used a top notch pro driver a couple times at Sebring for coaching. I love the guy and have benefited tremendously from his help. I had done a previous coaching day with another coach. While I didn't appreciate that coach's style in terms of his attitude (shouting doesn't work for me), I did pick up some pointers which the pro racer didn't give me, particularly in terms of turn in reference points in which the shouter coach had some excellent pointers. That got me to thinking. I have found that by switching trainers in the gym, I get some muscles aching that never ached before because of the natural difference in preferred exercises among the different trainers. So this leads up to my question. Do you feel that a guy like me would benefit from hiring different coaches or is it best to stick with someone you like and who is helping you progress? I was thinking of hiring you for a day at Sebring and wondered what you thought about the concept of using different coaches at the same track?
Mark, I do believe that serious drivers benefit from multiple sources of information. While it is comfortable to stick with someone we like & who is making a real difference, it gets too easy to fall into a mild cult of personality IMO. Quite often, folks who have regularly worked with Coach A for a while, and made huge progress, often learn a whole new set of skill nuances by working with Coach B for a day or two. This does not preclude going back to Coach A for the long term relationship, and usually this is a good approach. Looking at it differently....why limit yourself?
A guy I regularly coach also has gotten occasional input from another coach (same track), and has benefitted from it, which is the #1 objective, and the places he benefitted compliment the things he & I have worked on in his progression to becoming a very good driver. Another guy was coached regularly by very good coach, but he decided to work with me recently (same track) before a big race. He also benefitted (and posted about it on RL) after setting a new personal & track record. So, like you see at the gym, it can be a good thing. And it should NOT hurt the relationship with the coach you like & have worked so much with--if it does, there is a bigger issue at play.
I would love the opportunity to work with you!!
#161
Some of these suggestions are pretty cerebral - and I can't wait to take what you are saying and try them on the track. But what about fundamentals...and I mean super-basic stuff that is taken for granted and bad habits from driving on the road have caused us.
Such as hand positions. How to handle steering wheel on sharp tight corners (feed or hand over hand, etc). Feet (heel-toe kinda stuff), seat and hand position (For example, driving daily - I want to be comfortable, but I notice in professional racing - you are very close to the steering wheel).
Especially as an instructor...when you are riding with that guy that has never been on a track before...what are you looking at? What are suggestions you make before you even roll out on the track? What are dumb things that you probably laugh at quietly that us beginners do without knowing better.
Such as hand positions. How to handle steering wheel on sharp tight corners (feed or hand over hand, etc). Feet (heel-toe kinda stuff), seat and hand position (For example, driving daily - I want to be comfortable, but I notice in professional racing - you are very close to the steering wheel).
Especially as an instructor...when you are riding with that guy that has never been on a track before...what are you looking at? What are suggestions you make before you even roll out on the track? What are dumb things that you probably laugh at quietly that us beginners do without knowing better.
3 things we probably all look at are vision, seat and hand position, and calmness (or lack thereof).
We don't laugh at students - either to their face, behind their backs, and definitely not on Rennlist.
#162
#163
Thanks, Dave. I am going to do some things to Boxilla in the upcoming summer months when it is so brutally hot down here in Florida as to make track days not so enjoyable. I plan to install a cage and a hardtop, and perhaps a LSD. I'll be in touch on maybe doing a fall event when the weather cools a bit! Or I may book with you sooner if you agree to bring that gal in your avatar! LOL
I'm enjoying this thread!
I'm enjoying this thread!
#164
Two things:
Rotate the car - experienced drivers will use weight transfer to overcome understeer. Trail braking into slow corners in a 911 is one example, our cars tend to understeer in slow speed (tight) corners. Using the brakes to transfer weight to the front, i.e., making the back end lighter overcomes the tendency to push. In faster corners, it is sometimes useful to lift the throttle to give the front end more grip at turn-in. Modulating the throttle even mid turn is a useful technique to get the car on the right line, often called throttle steering. Dave basically said this but I'm adding some detail which I hope is not superfluous.
Concentration: Joe, one of the key tests we use for potential candidates for our Instructor Training program is the ability to lap at speed while engaging the passenger (an Instructor Mentor) in conversation on any subject all the way around. It is not surprising that many good drivers struggle with this.
In most programs we describe the progress of an adult student from"
Unconscious Incompetent - doesn't know what he doesn't know
Conscious Incompetent - knows he doesn't know it all
Unconscious Competent - can do it without having to think hard about it. This person is an Instructor Candidate and the kind of racer that can focus on race-craft The driving part is relegated to the subconscious.
Regards,
Rotate the car - experienced drivers will use weight transfer to overcome understeer. Trail braking into slow corners in a 911 is one example, our cars tend to understeer in slow speed (tight) corners. Using the brakes to transfer weight to the front, i.e., making the back end lighter overcomes the tendency to push. In faster corners, it is sometimes useful to lift the throttle to give the front end more grip at turn-in. Modulating the throttle even mid turn is a useful technique to get the car on the right line, often called throttle steering. Dave basically said this but I'm adding some detail which I hope is not superfluous.
Concentration: Joe, one of the key tests we use for potential candidates for our Instructor Training program is the ability to lap at speed while engaging the passenger (an Instructor Mentor) in conversation on any subject all the way around. It is not surprising that many good drivers struggle with this.
In most programs we describe the progress of an adult student from"
Unconscious Incompetent - doesn't know what he doesn't know
Conscious Incompetent - knows he doesn't know it all
Unconscious Competent - can do it without having to think hard about it. This person is an Instructor Candidate and the kind of racer that can focus on race-craft The driving part is relegated to the subconscious.
Regards,
In faster corners, it is sometimes useful to breathe the throttle to give the front end more grip at turn-in.
High speed turns may not requite you to lift completely off the throttle especially in 911s. I like to use the term breathe on the throttle because it is better defines how much movement to use on the throttle pedal. 50% throttle to 30% throttle is a breathe and 50% to 0% is a lift in most people's eyes.
#165
GTGears sells TBDs and LSDs.
Does TBD they sell improve stability during hard braking at all or is it completely 'transparent' during braking and works only during acceleration?
I am trying to decide which way to go as I afraid proper 40/60 LSD will affect my AX runs negatively. But I also want car to be more stable at braking on a track too. Not sure what to decide on. So far I was told by several people that TBD is probably better choice for mostly AX car but I cannot decide, plus some GT3 cars I know do AX fine with regular LSDs, not GTGears ones, but, well, can anybody address this question regarding TBD/LSD choice and logic behind it?
Does TBD they sell improve stability during hard braking at all or is it completely 'transparent' during braking and works only during acceleration?
I am trying to decide which way to go as I afraid proper 40/60 LSD will affect my AX runs negatively. But I also want car to be more stable at braking on a track too. Not sure what to decide on. So far I was told by several people that TBD is probably better choice for mostly AX car but I cannot decide, plus some GT3 cars I know do AX fine with regular LSDs, not GTGears ones, but, well, can anybody address this question regarding TBD/LSD choice and logic behind it?