Braking and downshifting from 115 to 50
#61
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that is totally true but it is not really reproducable in the normal street driving conditions to fit extreme fast 4-3-2 heel & toe action into one single braking zone. i have same issue with clutch release in the middle of it and do 4-2 waiting as long as possible on 4th gear, even if it is not 'correct'.
issue with that that all that stuff is not really easy to 'practice' on a track and at least with my case when instructors see you do not do it 'right' they start saying just stop doing it, like, do not even do it here as 'track is not a place to learn heel and toe' ( that was a quote - made a heck of impression to me, like, WTF i even come to a track for then if it is 'not a place to learn') - but on a street you also cannot really 'learn' much of it as it is not nearly same situation. so, go figure.
issue with that that all that stuff is not really easy to 'practice' on a track and at least with my case when instructors see you do not do it 'right' they start saying just stop doing it, like, do not even do it here as 'track is not a place to learn heel and toe' ( that was a quote - made a heck of impression to me, like, WTF i even come to a track for then if it is 'not a place to learn') - but on a street you also cannot really 'learn' much of it as it is not nearly same situation. so, go figure.
That Cervelli video is a great how-to reference. Almost graceful.
#62
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the problem is wear on the gear box.
the problem is also not getting the max amount of compression braking forces at the rear tires, and rear antilock characteristics with greater stability. Its probably a shaving hairs advantage if you have a close ration gear box.
the problem is also not getting the max amount of compression braking forces at the rear tires, and rear antilock characteristics with greater stability. Its probably a shaving hairs advantage if you have a close ration gear box.
I really don't see the problem with skipping a gear unless you just aren't good at it? Of course it's particular to each car, track, and driver but in the right situation I don't see the problem. Sure if you don't blip or blip too little you have a good chance of over revving which has dire consequences but with a bare modicum of skill it's not a bad thing in the right conditions. Such as getting into top gear (5th for me) for a short duration and then quite hard on the brakes initially. This brings me down well into 3rd gear range for the next corner on a particular track. Because of the particular part of a track I'm thinking about it makes good sense to limit the amount of time shifting down due to things happening in a bit of a hurry.
As I mentioned a page back or so, CCervelli does it very well with a shorter ratio tranny but it's not to say that we all can't do this in the right situation.
The US is king of the Automatic transmission. Virtually everywhere else in the world grow up and drive manual gearboxes predominantly. You never hear questions like these on UK or Euro forums btw....but the advantage of driving an Auto is learning LFB. I would LFB 85%+ time in my DD clunker. That's the one good thing about it.
As I mentioned a page back or so, CCervelli does it very well with a shorter ratio tranny but it's not to say that we all can't do this in the right situation.
The US is king of the Automatic transmission. Virtually everywhere else in the world grow up and drive manual gearboxes predominantly. You never hear questions like these on UK or Euro forums btw....but the advantage of driving an Auto is learning LFB. I would LFB 85%+ time in my DD clunker. That's the one good thing about it.
#63
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At Sears Point, I go from the top of 4th (~116 mph) down to 2nd for T11. I 'row' through 3rd to get there because I like to do it that way and I believe I have less chance of a missed shift or a poorly timed shift that would allow my competition to get past me due to a small mistake in one of the best places to pass.
I also usually compromise T2 with only going 4th to 3rd as it's too much for me to be going to 2nd and trying to keep the car settled while braking and turning. I'd likely get a better jump out of 2 by being in second but a mistake would be costly so I play it a bit more safe to ensure I keep the car settled and keep a good line through the turn.
I also usually compromise T2 with only going 4th to 3rd as it's too much for me to be going to 2nd and trying to keep the car settled while braking and turning. I'd likely get a better jump out of 2 by being in second but a mistake would be costly so I play it a bit more safe to ensure I keep the car settled and keep a good line through the turn.
#64
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I don't see the extra load on the syncros etc if it's done properly. As mentioned, under the correct set of circumstances when you've slowed enough to realistically skip a gear I don't see the problem. Even if you 'over' blip for a safety margin vs over revving with clutch disengaged.
#65
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zlMEkMOuBDI
Several skip shifts in this video on board with Chris Cervelli...it's not what I do but it definitely works for him.
Several skip shifts in this video on board with Chris Cervelli...it's not what I do but it definitely works for him.
#66
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Yup, anything under 3:00 is fast. Chris is a very graceful driver.
#67
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Decreasing the chances for a money shift by rowing through the gears is why I do it. I brake, keep the clutch in, and row through each gear. It just works best for me.
#68
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The extra wear is that you have a larger gap in transmission vs wheel speed, by jumping or skipping gears, unless you double clutch as you pass through neutral. Chis isnt double clutching, he is bliping and shifting as normal. again, for him, its not an issue because his gears are so close together. but, none the less, the synchros do wear more if the forces are greater, and they certainly are when you shift by skipping a gear. doing it "properly" has nothing to do with the wear. the transmission is spinning in 5th gear for example, you push the clutch in, (engine revs dont matter), and then you select 3rd. drive shaft, clutch discs and transmission layshafts are all running 5th gear vs wheel speed rpm. now, as you select 3rd, the drive shaft has to spin up 25% or 50% higher, in an instant. depending on the mass of all the components, the syncrhos take this load and force to spin up and match the road wheel speed at a shorter gear ratio. nothing to do with engine rev matching. the only thing you can do to avoild this is how you shift. not using as much clutch helps, or double clutching as you pass through neutral, and blip, will do it too. (but this takes a lot of time and is not really the best way to get around the track)
Mark
Mark
I don't see the extra load on the syncros etc if it's done properly. As mentioned, under the correct set of circumstances when you've slowed enough to realistically skip a gear I don't see the problem. Even if you 'over' blip for a safety margin vs over revving with clutch disengaged.
#69
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zlMEkMOuBDI
Several skip shifts in this video on board with Chris Cervelli...it's not what I do but it definitely works for him.
Several skip shifts in this video on board with Chris Cervelli...it's not what I do but it definitely works for him.
Now, more importantly, how much does a 993 RSR cost and where can I get one?!
#70
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The extra wear is that you have a larger gap in transmission vs wheel speed, by jumping or skipping gears, unless you double clutch as you pass through neutral. Chis isnt double clutching, he is bliping and shifting as normal. again, for him, its not an issue because his gears are so close together. but, none the less, the synchros do wear more if the forces are greater, and they certainly are when you shift by skipping a gear. doing it "properly" has nothing to do with the wear. the transmission is spinning in 5th gear for example, you push the clutch in, (engine revs dont matter), and then you select 3rd. drive shaft, clutch discs and transmission layshafts are all running 5th gear vs wheel speed rpm. now, as you select 3rd, the drive shaft has to spin up 25% or 50% higher, in an instant. depending on the mass of all the components, the syncrhos take this load and force to spin up and match the road wheel speed at a shorter gear ratio. nothing to do with engine rev matching. the only thing you can do to avoild this is how you shift. not using as much clutch helps, or double clutching as you pass through neutral, and blip, will do it too. (but this takes a lot of time and is not really the best way to get around the track)
Mark
Mark
Anyway as we can see, it does work in some cases. What I don't get is people rowing down through the gears, blipping each time, yet keeping the clutch in all the way? This technique has me puzzled.
Last edited by 333pg333; 04-22-2011 at 06:53 PM.
#71
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So, to my point, clutch in, rowing through the gears, still does a lot, because you spin up the layshaft, drive shaft and clutch plates , independant of the engine. the blipping then serves no purpose though, you are right, but the rowing does step the RPM of the drive line faser and faster and faster. skip a gear and that gear synchro takes more force to spin up the rotating compoents.
I still feel that if done quickly, as the shift is completed with a blip, that the engine helps with the spin up, but not positive about that.
maybe there is some minimal dragging of the clutch, in that there is enough force to spin up the drive shaft, but still enough disconnect to select in and out of gears.
I think the proof is in the video. if things look and feel smooth, you probably arent hurting anything.![Smilie](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif)
I still feel that if done quickly, as the shift is completed with a blip, that the engine helps with the spin up, but not positive about that.
maybe there is some minimal dragging of the clutch, in that there is enough force to spin up the drive shaft, but still enough disconnect to select in and out of gears.
I think the proof is in the video. if things look and feel smooth, you probably arent hurting anything.
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I take your point Mark. Mine is that by the time I'm pushing the shifter into 3rd I've already dropped a lot of speed off by pretty hard initial brake cadence. I'm also not going from flat out in 5th. In the instance that I'm describing I've only just snicked it into 5th for about 2-3 seconds. So by braking pretty hard, clutch in, (speed dropping considerably), blip, into 3rd, release clutch (not drop), I'm probably doing a similar engine to trans shift as if I was in 4th.
Anyway as we can see, it does work in some cases. What I don't get is people rowing down through the gears, blipping each time, yet keeping the clutch in all the way? This technique has me puzzled.
Anyway as we can see, it does work in some cases. What I don't get is people rowing down through the gears, blipping each time, yet keeping the clutch in all the way? This technique has me puzzled.