333pg333

Really nice and dare I say 'Artistic' shifting in this video. My guess is that it's a pretty close ratio box which allows him to skip down from 4th to 2nd without even much of a blip. Pleasure to watch.

333pg333

I wasn't suggesting that you have to jump from 5th to 2nd, merely that I find it strange that people go through the motions of 'rowing' when they keep the clutch in all the time. I was always told not to do this, but I'm not criticising, merely wondering out loud.
If you watch the Chris Cervelli video above, he makes jumping a gear look easy. I find that when I shift from 5th down to 2nd, I go via 3rd but skip 4th. Obviously shift pattern has a bit to do with our choices as well.

Watching the video you linked I get the feeling that Pierre rather fancies himself as bit of a Pro but he's messing his shift points with his brake points on one corner in particular. But I like the skivvy, blue jeans look. Tre chic'

ProCoach

+1,000,000!

coryf

As others have stated, I also go through every gear on the way down. Blip for every one and clutch released on every one. It is better for my timing and is much easier to do short quick blips between gears than to wait till the engine is at a very low rpm in a high gear at low speed and blip all the way up to a matching rev in a low gear. The only argument for skipping gears is if you simply dont have time due to the braking zone being so short, (but we are not talking about F1 cars here a "street" car has long braking zones) or if the driver is not any good with his footwork. Skipping gears is a crutch I believe in most cases. It can work of course, but most top level guys dont skip gears.

Another thing mentioned before is you can't skip gears on a sequential so it is a good idea to get used to going through all the gears if somone is ever planning on going to a real race tranny later.

I also suggest to my guys that are having problems with their footwork is to start driving a manual tranny car as a daily driver. It is amaizing how many guys only drive a manual once a month or so in their track cars. I heel/toe, blip, go through every gear 90% of the time in my street car. Practicing the footwork makes it second nature.

utkinpol

that is totally true but it is not really reproducable in the normal street driving conditions to fit extreme fast 4-3-2 heel & toe action into one single braking zone. i have same issue with clutch release in the middle of it and do 4-2 waiting as long as possible on 4th gear, even if it is not 'correct'.

issue with that that all that stuff is not really easy to 'practice' on a track and at least with my case when instructors see you do not do it 'right' they start saying just stop doing it, like, do not even do it here as 'track is not a place to learn heel and toe' ( that was a quote - made a heck of impression to me, like, WTF i even come to a track for then if it is 'not a place to learn') - but on a street you also cannot really 'learn' much of it as it is not nearly same situation. so, go figure.

Adam@Autometrics

I'm going to adamantly back Cory up on this. I look at a huge amount of data from many different drivers, and the guys who drive manual transmission cars downshift significantly better than those who don't (on average). I've only ever driven manual street cars, and I downshift "properly" on every shift (even if the pedals are not well-configured for it). I'm fortunate to get on the track 4 times a year (and rarely in the same car), but it takes only a few minutes for my shifting to smooth out (speed is rarely an issue). The muscle memory kicks in and it happens without any concentration. On the street, I'll occasionally upshift into a high gear before braking just so there is one extra downshift to do.

I consider skipping gears on downshift to be a bad habit or a crutch. I view it very much like shuffle steering (another bad habit I "cured" on the street). It won't fundamentally slow you down, but in a sub-optimal situation (how often does that happen on a racetrack?) it can cause problems. I'm not suggesting everyone should switch to hitting every gear immediately, but it should be a goal every driver should work toward. I always suggest consistency, and if a technique does not work on a high-level car - sequential transmissions are become very common - then I do not recommend relying on it, even if you can "get away with it" in your car - unless you have no aspirations of ever driving a faster car.

mark kibort

Yep, this is probably the most important reason to not do it, but in the case of Chris C, he has a few things working in his favor when he does it. I dont see him double clutching, but he might be, but the main thing, is that he is slowing so much that the final RPM is fairly low, and the gears are close enough with a 993 6 speed, or possibly another, other than stock gear box, that the rpm differences are not that great. (i.e. going from 5th to 3rd, might be only as much of a rpm difference as in my car going from 5th to 4th).

The other factor, is that when you skip a gear with the clutch pushed in, you put extra strain on the synchros, which do ALL the work to match the gear speeds. the greater the differential, the greater the forces on them to match ground speed, with transmission, driveshaft speed. (layshaft). so, even if the engine RPM is low, the tall gear to a 2 gear jump to a shorter gear , WITH the clutch in , creates a large RPM differential in the gear box, which the synchros have to match. if you double clutch, through neutral, with a throttle blip to spin up the layshaft, then this is not an issue. if you dont use a clutch, and blip through neutral, its not an issue either, BUT, that takes mad skills do do it absolutey correct,and then risk of doing it wrong is great, and costs even greater!

Best, to have the engine connected to the gear box, as much of the time as possible, and be in the right gear all the time for the speed you are runnig at, because , in racing, things change without warning and you dont want to be in the wrong gear. going through the gears, reduces wear on the box, and always assures you are in the right gear , at any speed. It also allows the rear diff LSD, to help with anti-lock by using the engine to steer or act as a rudder for stability. wth the clutch in , or using low revs before a shift, you dont get the advantage that is available. Chris's example is a unique one , as he is very good at it, and I suspect his ratios are a lttle closer than most.

Mark

Ray S

+1

claykos

I discussed this with Chris once, and I am 99% sure he told me he double clutches the big skip shifts. I think there are a couple of times in that video he goes 5-2 or even 6-2. And yes - his gearbox is totally nonstock and geared very tight which makes it easy. There's definitely something ot be said for economy of motion and being able to focus on the initial braking, and it certainly works for him...

As a general policy I would recommend going down through the gears though.

stownsen914

Maybe better to say "the track isn't the right place to START practicing heel and toe." It's true that doing it on the street isn't exactly the same as doing a 4-3-2 approaching Turn 1, but you can get the actions and coordination down at least. There's a lot to think about when you drive on the track. If you can get *reasonably* good at heel and toeing on the street, in my opinion you'll be way ahead when you get to the track.

Scott

stownsen914

Can't it just be a preference?

quickxotica

Question for the West-coasters.

Sears Point (Infineon), final hairpin, T11. This is the exception for me.. the only place I skip shift. I used to shift 4-3-2 here like normal. But in recent years I have instead held 4th (engaged) through 90% of the braking zone, then at last minute skip shift to 2nd. For some reason at this location (the bumpy braking zone perhaps?) this feels better than 4-3-2. Matching revs either method is not a problem for me.

Any thoughts?

mark kibort

definitely a high braking force zone, but not from a really high speed. 125mph or so. I think it shouldnt be a problem, other than the fact that I believe that this is a huge trail braking turn, and you are not getting the benefits of the LSD helping you out with rotating and stabilizing the car into the turn. and, as I mentioned , if you dont double clutch, you shock the gears a little more than if you just rowed through the 2 shfts before 2nd gear. with the 928, we have a much longer drive shaft, so there is more mass there to worry about changing speeds for two gear skips. (main drive shaft, and lay shaft and two clutch discs) . something to think about
again, you an clearly see how Chris Cervelli has a very close ratio box, so its not a big deal for him to brake hard and by pass a gear or two. in the cup cars with sequental gearing, they row through them almost as fast as they can bang the shifter. I wonder if any of the cup drivers will go through mutliple downsifts, and not let the clutch out for say, 2 or more shifts? I think they wouldnt, due to wanting to have forces on the tires as much of the time as possible.

quickxotica

Clarifying tidbits: 1. No lsd 2. Yes double clutching either way 3. When I say I leave 4th gear engaged, I mean the gear - not the clutch. Car is in-gear at all times exept the 1 second (or whatever) it takes to change down, H&T, release. 4. yes, trail braking.

333pg333

I really don't see the problem with skipping a gear unless you just aren't good at it? Of course it's particular to each car, track, and driver but in the right situation I don't see the problem. Sure if you don't blip or blip too little you have a good chance of over revving which has dire consequences but with a bare modicum of skill it's not a bad thing in the right conditions. Such as getting into top gear (5th for me) for a short duration and then quite hard on the brakes initially. This brings me down well into 3rd gear range for the next corner on a particular track. Because of the particular part of a track I'm thinking about it makes good sense to limit the amount of time shifting down due to things happening in a bit of a hurry.

As I mentioned a page back or so, CCervelli does it very well with a shorter ratio tranny but it's not to say that we all can't do this in the right situation.

The US is king of the Automatic transmission. Virtually everywhere else in the world grow up and drive manual gearboxes predominantly. You never hear questions like these on UK or Euro forums btw....but the advantage of driving an Auto is learning LFB. I would LFB 85%+ time in my DD clunker. That's the one good thing about it.