mark kibort

sounds pretty amazing!

cup car performance out of the old 993.

mk

mklaskin

Paul is correct. My air cooled car made 400 on the dyno. Don't know what it made at the wheels. Basically done with better porting for both intake and exhaust and Motec mapping.

Geoffrey

Actually it is a 964 and does not benefit from the 993 suspension, nor is the aero optimized nor the ride height.

Veloce Raptor

And I am a witness: it is freaking FAST.

Geoffrey

The other item worth mentioning is that a lighweight GT car is that you'll always be able to outbrake a Cup car by a wide margin. At the busstop at WGI, I can generally brake 200ft later than a 996 Cup. In addition, consumables are far, far less. I went 3 seasons on a set of front rotors with no additional cooling. Brake pads last 5 2 day events. I've been racing on used GT3 Cup slicks with 8+ heat cycles, but work reasonably well on my car, and I use regular 93 octane pump fuel in my engine. The lightweight does have many advantages.

Gasser

I agree on the light weight. Im only modestly light weight and Ive noticed my rotors, brakes, tires all last a long time and even when the heat cycles add up on the tires they just seem to perform longer. I have put about 15 heat cycles on my Yokos and they held up time wise pretty well over a weekend. Started to drop off a second or two by the 12 heat cycle but still manageable though.

Braking is another matter, Just awesome with slicks and light weight. Im no where near where I could be in late braking. Im more limited by my nervous system at this point.

coryf

The earlier/lighter cars definately have an advantage in slower speed corners and braking. The new cars with their more slippery body shapes, better downforce and more modern suspension geometry have the upper hand in the higher speed sections. The main dis-advantage of an early car is that they are getting older. Depending on what shop built the car, it may be a reliability nightmare. The bodywork is normally semi custom fitted, the motors high strung, ect.. It is a lot easier to simply do gas and go in a 996/997 cup but in all honesty there is not a lot of cars more fun/challenging to drive than an early swing arm 911 Paul and Kim's cars (So-Close) are incredibly fun to drive. But dont let them fool you, one of the primary reasons they keep up with the 996 cup cars is that they are driving the wheels off their cars. Paul spends more time side ways than going straight! With the modern billet heads for the aircooled engines, the early cars are becoming extremely fast. The turbo cars from Pat Williams also are incredibly quick. With the reliablity and speed improving, I think more and more early cars are going to be at the front of the GT grids in the next few years.

mark kibort

And you wonder why I have such a beef with PCA classing cars with their mickey mouse classing system? I've been saying this for years.... Hp to weight ratios (forget about tying it to displacement, thats plain stupid) and then, ABSOLUTE weight. If they just used HP/weight (or average HP on a dyno run) and made two classes of cars, under 2400lbs and over 2700lbs getting some type restriction/consession respectively, they would hit 95% of what I think is fair classing.

light cars braking " 200feet" earlier vs a cup car.., on "15 heat cycle tires", with old swing arm , torsion bar suspension, etc etc .. weight is used in corners and underbraking, yet HP is only used under acceleration, and is much less of a factor, yet it is the most focused on.

anyway, dont get me going about the PCA or POC classing cars!

BTW, 3 seasons on set of front rotors , on a race car? you have got to be kidding me? two things. either you are not using your brakes, or you are not using your brakes.

edit : removed incorrect statement

winders

Do you have any experience running a light car with large brakes for three race seasons? I wouldn't be telling anyone that they aren't using the brakes since you can't possibly know.

Just because you are lighter does mean you won't be as hard on the brake system.....

Scott

Veloce Raptor

Mark, knock it off. I have seen Geoffrey's car, and I have seen him drive it. Your "critique" is off base and out of line. Also, you entirely missed each & every point he made in his post.

And you wonder why we have such a beef with you?

bobt993

^^^^^^^^^^^^ Adding to what VR is saying. As far as brakes go there are several levels drivers go through: Not using them enough because your not going very fast to begin with; Next level. over using your brakes because you think it's faster to beat on the car; Finally, some drivers learn turn entry and that the brake pedal is for balance and setting up the corner. At that point brake usage goes way down as does other consumables.

jdistefa

400 crank hp out of a well tuned itb 3.8 964/993 isn't unreasonable.

I'm running about 250lb more than Geoffrey and made it to 2 seasons on one set of front rotors.

+1 to BobT

mark kibort

I do agree to a certain extent, but still you need to bake them, to the limit of straight line grip on those fast straights decels to a slow corner. I cant imagine 3 full seasons, let alone 3 full weekends, where stock rotors wouldnt be in pretty bad shape after running some all out competitive, 30 min races. But, still, I understand and those techiques have helped my brake wear, even though I have a heavy car.
certainly, a ligher car vs a heavy car (same lap times) setting up for a turn, after a fast straight, will use less brakes to get to its faster entry speed through a kink, for example. I guess If I was 800lbs ligher, there maybe turns where I wouldnt need to even brake , or just use the pedal for balance as you say. Pull out some HP, and be equal hp-weight to other cars running same lap times as before weight reduction and I can certainly see equal laps with little brake wear.

I also agree with the 3 wear situations. However, if you start loosing weight, but keep the HP the same, your Hp/weight goes up, and your speeds go up while so do your cornering speeds, those trade offs might not be a difference in wear.

Geoffrey

Mark, I don't run stock rotors which may be where your experience is different. I have AP Racing rotors which are larger than stock and solid/slotted, not drilled and are of a different contruction. The brakes have some factory cooling, just not the full clamshell from the 993RSR.

mark kibort

Ah, Scott. again, if your brakes last 3 race seasons, you are not using the brakes (espeically if they dont have any cooling. ) this is a complement. and implies exactly what bob said too! relax! It was meant tongue and cheek

doesnt, "arent using brakes" = "wont be as hard on the brakes". :roflamo:

I removed the incorrect statement I posted regardng this.

Again, you are so always quick to judge. If he lasts 3 seasons on a single set of brakes, they are not being used, as I said to scott. "he is not using the brakes.". this is a good thing! doesnt mean he isnt pushing it. this implies ALL of the things that has been said about his driving. he is not using the brakes, thats why the rotors last a long time, thats a good thing. also caused by the fact that he is 800lbs lighter than a lot of cars that go through rotors sooner.
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Btw, as I told scott, I did have statement that was incorrect about being ligher and should still use the brakes the same. I removed it. I was thinking of cars that lose weight only. they generally will use the brakes the same becauese they should be going faster.