View Poll Results: Is there cheating in PCA Racing
No, We are all gentlemen
30
14.29%
Yes, Other people but not me
144
68.57%
Yes, I have a few secrets of my own
36
17.14%
Voters: 210. You may not vote on this poll
Do people cheat in PCA Club Racing?
01-22-2011, 05:50 PM
#76
Herr Unmöglich
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Easy to write the rule, actually implementing another story. NASA has such a provision but in 10 years of racing with NASA, never saw the protest rule used in our classes. NASA really had no one present that had the technical skills or time to perform the inspection. Plus the driver is responsible for taking the car (engine, tranny or whatever) apart and for reassembly. How many of us are going to put up with that crap in the middle of a race weekend. I would take my car somewhere else to race where things aren't that serious. .
I can understand this happening at higher level events, but our events are comparable and I just don't ever see it happening.
01-22-2011, 08:20 PM
#77
Rennlist Member
I saw a guy come off track just ahead of me after a race, and and on the way to impound his mechanic tossed a bag of sand into the car under the passengers seat. I mentioned it to the scrut, but he was underweight even WITH the bad so got a DSQ. I don't know if they gave him any other penalty, he's been winning lots of races and workers choice awards since then.
01-22-2011, 08:41 PM
#78
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I saw a guy come off track just ahead of me after a race, and and on the way to impound his mechanic tossed a bag of sand into the car under the passengers seat. I mentioned it to the scrut, but he was underweight even WITH the bad so got a DSQ. I don't know if they gave him any other penalty, he's been winning lots of races and workers choice awards since then.
That way we can stay out of his way if on the same track...........
01-22-2011, 09:57 PM
#79
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I saw a guy come off track just ahead of me after a race, and and on the way to impound his mechanic tossed a bag of sand into the car under the passengers seat. I mentioned it to the scrut, but he was underweight even WITH the bad so got a DSQ. I don't know if they gave him any other penalty, he's been winning lots of races and workers choice awards since then.
01-22-2011, 10:26 PM
#80
uninformed gas bag
(contemplating on whether gas bag is one or two words)
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(contemplating on whether gas bag is one or two words)
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I saw a guy come off track just ahead of me after a race, and and on the way to impound his mechanic tossed a bag of sand into the car under the passengers seat. I mentioned it to the scrut, but he was underweight even WITH the bad so got a DSQ. I don't know if they gave him any other penalty, he's been winning lots of races and workers choice awards since then.
01-23-2011, 12:01 PM
#81
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PCA has the qualified scruts with the right tools (e.g., borescope, software readers, etc.). no need for tear down and driver doesn't have to do anything. Plus, a lot of the cheating in PCA is actually very obvious/easy to find.
Example - two years ago at the Glen they did a simple suspension check of the entire D class at the end of a session and moved 3 people up a class for violations.
Example - two years ago at the Glen they did a simple suspension check of the entire D class at the end of a session and moved 3 people up a class for violations.
As with any not for profit club, like PCA, their resources are limited. They already are doing what they can with what they have. Asking PCA do do more inspections on a per request basis may be practically beyond what they can accomplish with their manpower limitations.
Besides, sounds like from the example given with the bump steer parts they are already catching the "easy to find" illegalities. Their system is working....... within resource limitations and given the nature of the type of racing being done here.
But thats just how I see it. I look forward to racing more with PCA in 2011 with a new found appreciation for what they do in the way of inspections.
01-23-2011, 11:46 PM
#82
As somebody who has been racing in one of the most competitive stock classes, I've been convinced over the past several years that the people who beat me are doing it by better driving. It's just been plainly obvious that when we go into a turn together, they are carrying faster speed than I am when they win, and when I win, it's obvious (to me, at least) that I'm carrying faster speed.
I know I'm driving a 100% legal car, and when I lose, I've never though that I lost to a superior car - I've only lost to a superior driver.
To me, that's what I look for in PCA racing.
I know I'm driving a 100% legal car, and when I lose, I've never though that I lost to a superior car - I've only lost to a superior driver.
To me, that's what I look for in PCA racing.
01-24-2011, 10:48 AM
#83
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This is what I wrote in the 993 thread after my limited (1 race) experience:
I have only (finally!) done the Summit race after 6 years of DE but was interested if I could see any obvious differences in acceleration between cars (for obvious cheating) and I couldn't. For all of the talk of PCA cheating in the stock/prepared classes it wasn't obvious to me on the track... I know it is out there though. I have heard of a few cars w/ custom gearing and I saw a car or two with wheels that were wider than allowed, but on the track where it counts I didn't see any cars that were mechanically faster than my car in G or even H (most of the H cars were faster at the end of the straight at Summit which they should be). My opinion is you can be at the top of your class (consistent podium) with a 100% legal car.
I have only (finally!) done the Summit race after 6 years of DE but was interested if I could see any obvious differences in acceleration between cars (for obvious cheating) and I couldn't. For all of the talk of PCA cheating in the stock/prepared classes it wasn't obvious to me on the track... I know it is out there though. I have heard of a few cars w/ custom gearing and I saw a car or two with wheels that were wider than allowed, but on the track where it counts I didn't see any cars that were mechanically faster than my car in G or even H (most of the H cars were faster at the end of the straight at Summit which they should be). My opinion is you can be at the top of your class (consistent podium) with a 100% legal car.
When I first started racing, I took my DE car to my local track (Lime Rock) and got my *** handed to me. I think I came in second to last overall in my races. While I ran fast lap times for my DE events, it was pathetically slow for the racing environment. I thought that everybody must be cheating.
However, at that event, I started to notice a couple of things: my car was still a DE car in that it had a few mods, but nothing close to what was allowed by the rules. The car was about 200 pounds overweight, still had stock headers and muffler, and the suspension was better than stock, but not a full race suspension.
By the next race (Watkins Glen), I fixed all of that, and I improved to about mid-pack. I was still convinced that some people were cheating (the people in front of me). What made me think this was that I was positive that another racer and I would leave a corner at the same time, and then he'd blow my doors off on the next straight.
Fast forward a couple of years, and I got better and suddenly I was winning some races and being on the podium on many others. The racers who were blowing my doors off were suddenly only even with me on the straights. What I found out was that I was leaving lots of time on the table, and these racers figured out how to get a good run on me. Now, I'm not leaving that time on the table, and it seems that among the front runners, there is no clear HP advantage between competitors. In other words, the better driver wins.
I agree that some people may be cheating (and I've had people basically tell me that they are - usually backmarkers), but I figure if I'm beating them, what do I care?
However, at that event, I started to notice a couple of things: my car was still a DE car in that it had a few mods, but nothing close to what was allowed by the rules. The car was about 200 pounds overweight, still had stock headers and muffler, and the suspension was better than stock, but not a full race suspension.
By the next race (Watkins Glen), I fixed all of that, and I improved to about mid-pack. I was still convinced that some people were cheating (the people in front of me). What made me think this was that I was positive that another racer and I would leave a corner at the same time, and then he'd blow my doors off on the next straight.
Fast forward a couple of years, and I got better and suddenly I was winning some races and being on the podium on many others. The racers who were blowing my doors off were suddenly only even with me on the straights. What I found out was that I was leaving lots of time on the table, and these racers figured out how to get a good run on me. Now, I'm not leaving that time on the table, and it seems that among the front runners, there is no clear HP advantage between competitors. In other words, the better driver wins.
I agree that some people may be cheating (and I've had people basically tell me that they are - usually backmarkers), but I figure if I'm beating them, what do I care?
It took me a long time to move from DE to racing, which allowed me the time to research/obsess (traded many many emails with Donna) and build the car to what is allowed by the rule. My car won the "Best Prepared" car at the event.
Running the exact minimum weight, proper aero, exhaust mod, and rear tire, it (F Stock 986 Boxster S) was as fast as others on both long VIR straights as others in the lead pack. I was able to pass a few G/H cars when I got a good tow, and was able to defend against the SP3 winner even when he has a tow from me.
03-24-2011, 07:22 PM
#84
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03-24-2011, 07:36 PM
#85
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Your numbers are too small.... cheater.
Im aware there will always be cheaters, my bigger issue is being accused of cheating and there is no way to prove Im legal (like NASA GTS when there is no dyno present). For PCA/BMWCCA where the rules are stated, if you think someone is cheating, then effing protest and impound the car and be done with it.
I hate all this behind the scenes... "that guy MUST be cheating" caus he beat MY cheater (or legal) car by 2 secs! If you really think the person is cheating, protest. If youre so hell bent on classifying someone as a cheater, then you better back that up with an impound and be prepared to pay for the costs associated if he is found legal.
Id like to take that one step further even and force the person to publically apologize for incorrectly accusing someone of such.
Cue this thread at about post #381: https://rennlist.com/forums/racing-a...hos-in-26.html
Im aware there will always be cheaters, my bigger issue is being accused of cheating and there is no way to prove Im legal (like NASA GTS when there is no dyno present). For PCA/BMWCCA where the rules are stated, if you think someone is cheating, then effing protest and impound the car and be done with it.
I hate all this behind the scenes... "that guy MUST be cheating" caus he beat MY cheater (or legal) car by 2 secs! If you really think the person is cheating, protest. If youre so hell bent on classifying someone as a cheater, then you better back that up with an impound and be prepared to pay for the costs associated if he is found legal.
Id like to take that one step further even and force the person to publically apologize for incorrectly accusing someone of such.
Cue this thread at about post #381: https://rennlist.com/forums/racing-a...hos-in-26.html
See...the upset guy who wrote that "you'll have to pay if found legal" knows a few things such as:
1) It will take someone more psychologically impaired than the winning cheater to protest
2) Instead of protesting, other psychologically impaired racers will up the ante by cheating more and more creatively
3) That if a cheater's engine gets torn down and is found to be cheating that is ok because he now will just leave it that way until he figures a way to one-up everyone by raising the cheating bar even higher.
4) Continually repeat...
03-24-2011, 07:40 PM
#86
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Cheating is one of the reasons I like NASA GTS so much. It's HP to weight, have scales and a dyno and it's pretty simple. Do anything you want to the car as long as you fall in the HP/wt ratio.
Oh, and most cheaters usually justify their own cheating by thinking that everyone is doing it so when they cheat all they are doing is leveling the playing field. Simply not true.
Oh, and most cheaters usually justify their own cheating by thinking that everyone is doing it so when they cheat all they are doing is leveling the playing field. Simply not true.
03-24-2011, 07:53 PM
#87
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Those with a small ego know that getting caught cheating is not likely to happen.
And they also know PCA has no resources to keep up with their changing methods just as those chasing performance enhancing drugs cannot keep up with the end users pharmacist.
03-24-2011, 08:04 PM
#89
It's also why when we needed to be restricted hp in NASA GTS we opted to add a physical metal plate air restrictor which could easily be seen and inspected. Those competitors and tech that did see it were always amazed that we were as fast as we were with our little straw that we were sucking thru yet it was always obviously in place and easy to see.
03-24-2011, 08:09 PM
#90
Yep, very true as I am a witness to. That's a neat system although I still feel there are too many variables to use it to DQ someone. I do feel it will be a great tool to help see the outliers and know which cars you should look at much more closely.
I have had this conversation with NASA officials as well as two of the companies they tested this GPS based data hp calculating system with and neither could address all the variables I was able to present. I know I really pissed off one company rep because he thought his system was flawless.