Notices
Racing & Drivers Education Forum
Sponsored by:
Sponsored by:
View Poll Results: Is there cheating in PCA Racing
No, We are all gentlemen
30
14.29%
Yes, Other people but not me
144
68.57%
Yes, I have a few secrets of my own
36
17.14%
Voters: 210. You may not vote on this poll

Do people cheat in PCA Club Racing?

 
Old 01-21-2011, 01:43 PM
  #1  
jscott82
Addict
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
 
jscott82's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Charlotte, NC
Posts: 2,362
Received 15 Likes on 6 Posts
Default Do people cheat in PCA Club Racing?

So I made the comment on the 993 forum that I thought it was expected that the top competitors bend (not break) the rules, specifically referring to stock class... What I am referring to here are the little things, misplaced ballast weight, not so legal coatings, porting, etc. Not the big stuff, gears, chips, etc

So anonymous poll... what is your perception?

Requisite Disclaimer: My car is 100% legal, I have been making a list of little thing that I might do if I get in a pinch but as it stands now 100% legal.... I swear........
jscott82 is offline  
Old 01-21-2011, 01:46 PM
  #2  
good hands
Addict
Rennlist Member
 
good hands's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: 30 minutes from Summit Point
Posts: 1,452
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default

No people do not cheat. Not even a little. That's what differentiates PCA club racing from all other sanctioning bodies.
good hands is offline  
Old 01-21-2011, 01:48 PM
  #3  
Veloce Raptor
Addict
Rennlist Member
 
Veloce Raptor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: In a race car...
Posts: 39,163
Likes: 0
Received 36 Likes on 16 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by good hands View Post
No people do not cheat. Not even a little. That's what differentiates PCA club racing from all other sanctioning bodies.
Veloce Raptor is offline  
Old 01-21-2011, 01:53 PM
  #4  
onefastviking
Addict
Rennlist Member
 
onefastviking's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Texas
Posts: 3,492
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default

Yes people cheat, don't kid yourself for a minute. And little things like misplaced ballast,coatings, etc , are still cheating, period.
A grey area would be if air filters were open and you put a single wire across the air filter box opening. This technically would be a filter, it's a very tortured interpretation of the rule but legal none the less. I call that a grey area.
onefastviking is offline  
Old 01-21-2011, 02:04 PM
  #5  
wanna911
Super User
 
wanna911's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: With A Manual Transmission
Posts: 4,727
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by good hands View Post
No people do not cheat. Not even a little. That's what differentiates PCA club racing from all other sanctioning bodies.
Sarcasm?

That's a pretty bold statement unless you know every racer in every class in the whole PCA. It's hard to imagine that someone isn't cheating. Pretty pathetic when people cheat to win absolutely nothing. Or even a set of tires if PCA has a contingency.
wanna911 is offline  
Old 01-21-2011, 02:04 PM
  #6  
Larry Herman
F1 Resident Adult
Rennlist Member

Small Business Sponsor

 
Larry Herman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Lambertville, NJ
Posts: 10,432
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default

If you call cheating the intentional disregard of the rules (for whatever reason) then yes, there are a lot of people "cheating" out there.

If you break it down to a finer level, I think that the cars that are not 100% legal fall into 3 catagories:

1) There is an illegal modification with minimal performance impact that was previously done to the car that is too expensive for the current owner to correct.

2) The current owner made illegal modifications not for performance but to increase reliability. Running ARP rod bolts, dual race IMS bearings, billet cam chain tensioners and GT3 oil pumps are all technically illegal, but do not improve performance, only reliability.

3) The car has illegal performance enhancing improvements that the owner is fully aware of.
__________________
Larry Herman
2016 Ford Transit Connect Titanium LWB
2016 Chevy Volt - Electricity can be fun!
National PCA Instructor
Past Flames:
1994 RS America Club Racer
2004 GT3 Track Car
1984 911 Carrera Club Racer
1974 914/4 2.0 Track Car

CLICK HERE to see some of my ancient racing videos.
Larry Herman is offline  
Old 01-21-2011, 02:16 PM
  #7  
bobt993
Addict
Rennlist Member
 
bobt993's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Philly Burbs
Posts: 3,063
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Default

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
You are completely under-estimating the desire to win and boost one's stature amongst his/her peers. The formula for winning is no different for a successful entrepreneur than for his/her interest in motor racing. You can take the long road or the short cut and still get to the top of the podium and it is possible that only you will know what road was taken. Like all things in life it is not always fair.

BTW winning tire or even cash never adds up to the amount you put into the car etc so winning is not financially beneficial to anyone but the race shops on an amateur level.
bobt993 is offline  
Old 01-21-2011, 02:20 PM
  #8  
M758
Super User
 
M758's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Phoenix, Az
Posts: 17,643
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by jscott82 View Post
...it was expected that the top competitors bend (not break) the rules, specifically referring to stock class... What I am referring to here are the little things, misplaced ballast weight, not so legal coatings, porting, etc. Not the big stuff, gears, chips, etc...
I make no comment on PCA Club racing. However putting my NASA 944 Spec officials hat on EVERTHING above is cheating. No "bending of the rules" Some items may get you a "fix it and don't do it again", a one race DQ only, or other a multi race suspension. Alot depends on how plausible the argument of "Oh I did not know" might be. Ballast 6" out position is not like porting. You don't port by accident.
M758 is offline  
Old 01-21-2011, 02:24 PM
  #9  
GTgears
Super User
 
GTgears's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Loveland, CO
Posts: 5,069
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes on 2 Posts
Default

I talk to cheaters on a pretty much daily basis. My official position on it is every customer is responsible for knowing the rules in their own class and following them accordingly. However, I have run gearcharts for people that are 1 tooth off stock. I don't discuss with them what they are doing. It's none of my business really. But I do know from firsthand experience that it does happen.

I am reminded of an experience from last year. I had a customer call to inquire about an LSD for a Boxster 5spd. He asked where people were using our differential in Boxsters. I mentioned a couple of different places like NASA and Grand-Am and included BSR. The conversation finished and I hung up.

About 2 weeks later I saw a post on a forum about how he had spoken to me and that I didn't know the rules because BSR doesn't allow LSDs. I didn't bother to post and tell him that I wasn't the niave one.

And then there's Dan Jacobs. He's not running our LSD in his BSR, but he runs our stickers. It's a head trip he's throwing at the competition. When he showed me the car I just had to laugh.
GTgears is offline  
Old 01-21-2011, 02:33 PM
  #10  
jscott82
Addict
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
 
jscott82's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Charlotte, NC
Posts: 2,362
Received 15 Likes on 6 Posts
Default

I almost forgot my main point.... and need another option.... the "I didnt know"... Ive seen several instances of that first hand.
jscott82 is offline  
Old 01-21-2011, 02:48 PM
  #11  
2BWise
User
 
2BWise's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Northville, MI
Posts: 1,291
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default

I am not currently racing PCA, but I know in the SCCA there is a lot of unintended grey area. All rule books have areas that aren't 100% clear, or don't define everything, or technology appears that doesn't fit the current rules. Not everything is cheating. Sometimes there are holes or performance advantages that aren't defined. The only way to straighten it out is by protest. I only see cheating as blatant disregard for the rules as written, which to PCA I can't speak.
2BWise is offline  
Old 01-21-2011, 02:49 PM
  #12  
Larry Herman
F1 Resident Adult
Rennlist Member

Small Business Sponsor

 
Larry Herman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Lambertville, NJ
Posts: 10,432
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by jscott82 View Post
I almost forgot my main point.... and need another option.... the "I didnt know"... Ive seen several instances of that first hand.
Yeah, I've seen the "I didn't know", and for real too. One guy that I know of bought a car that was way too fast down the straight. Won some races that he shouldn't have too. Finally puked the motor and when it was rebuilt (legally this time) he lost over a second a lap. Couldn't figure out why either.
__________________
Larry Herman
2016 Ford Transit Connect Titanium LWB
2016 Chevy Volt - Electricity can be fun!
National PCA Instructor
Past Flames:
1994 RS America Club Racer
2004 GT3 Track Car
1984 911 Carrera Club Racer
1974 914/4 2.0 Track Car

CLICK HERE to see some of my ancient racing videos.
Larry Herman is offline  
Old 01-21-2011, 03:00 PM
  #13  
Sterling Doc
Addict
Rennlist Member
 
Sterling Doc's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Sterling, IL
Posts: 1,442
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default

Is this a rhetorical question?

Where there is racing, some people will try and find an unfair advantage. I've seen it, in NASA, and in the PCA.

The bigger question is how do you find it, and stamp it out?

This can be tricky, because, as posted above, the intent & effectiveness of the illegal mods varies a lot. Also, the amount of intervention required can be painful (engine teardowns, etc.)

I've seen steel a-arms modified to increase the track width, and look stock. Blatant cheating, yet was claimed to be "in the spirit" of the rules because it was cheap to do/done at home.


I've seen aLexan quarter window put in on one side to allow for ducting of air in. Not legal in 944 Spec/SP1 rules the same as the first example, but not rising to near the same level of intent/egregiousness.
... and fix it for the next event. I have a big supply of stock parts to hand out for this sort of stuff.

It is important not fall for the "it doesn't have any advantage" arguement, because this is a very slippery slope, though it may buy you some leniency in the form of time to fix it.
Sterling Doc is offline  
Old 01-21-2011, 03:19 PM
  #14  
Potomac-Greg
Super User
 
Potomac-Greg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Suburban DC
Posts: 2,641
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default

When interviewing some folks before diving into SRF, I asked about cheating. The response was that it was very, very hard to cheat, and easy to spot.

"How do you spot a cheater?"
"He passes you."

Cheating in amateur racing is really odd. What's the benefit other than a hollow victory (maybe)?
Potomac-Greg is offline  
Old 01-21-2011, 03:33 PM
  #15  
analogmike
Addict
Rennlist Member
 
analogmike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Danbury, CT, USA
Posts: 3,725
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Default

Originally Posted by GTgears View Post
And then there's Dan Jacobs. He's not running our LSD in his BSR, but he runs our stickers. It's a head trip he's throwing at the competition. When he showed me the car I just had to laugh.
Awesome.

When I used to autocross, a friend with a stock RX7 had an Iskenderian Cams sticker on his car.

My car that I am bringing to Sebring is 100% legal, it's too hard to cheat in GTA2. I'll try harder.
analogmike is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Quick Reply: Do people cheat in PCA Club Racing?


Contact Us - About Us - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

© 2019 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands

We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
 
  • Ask a Question
    Get answers from community experts
Question Title:
Description:
Your question will be posted in: