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View Poll Results: Is there cheating in PCA Racing
No, We are all gentlemen
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Do people cheat in PCA Club Racing?

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Old 01-21-2011, 01:43 PM
  #1
jscott82
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Default Do people cheat in PCA Club Racing?

So I made the comment on the 993 forum that I thought it was expected that the top competitors bend (not break) the rules, specifically referring to stock class... What I am referring to here are the little things, misplaced ballast weight, not so legal coatings, porting, etc. Not the big stuff, gears, chips, etc

So anonymous poll... what is your perception?

Requisite Disclaimer: My car is 100% legal, I have been making a list of little thing that I might do if I get in a pinch but as it stands now 100% legal.... I swear........
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Old 01-21-2011, 01:46 PM
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good hands
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No people do not cheat. Not even a little. That's what differentiates PCA club racing from all other sanctioning bodies.
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Old 01-21-2011, 01:48 PM
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Originally Posted by good hands View Post
No people do not cheat. Not even a little. That's what differentiates PCA club racing from all other sanctioning bodies.
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Old 01-21-2011, 01:53 PM
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Yes people cheat, don't kid yourself for a minute. And little things like misplaced ballast,coatings, etc , are still cheating, period.
A grey area would be if air filters were open and you put a single wire across the air filter box opening. This technically would be a filter, it's a very tortured interpretation of the rule but legal none the less. I call that a grey area.
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Old 01-21-2011, 02:04 PM
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Originally Posted by good hands View Post
No people do not cheat. Not even a little. That's what differentiates PCA club racing from all other sanctioning bodies.
Sarcasm?

That's a pretty bold statement unless you know every racer in every class in the whole PCA. It's hard to imagine that someone isn't cheating. Pretty pathetic when people cheat to win absolutely nothing. Or even a set of tires if PCA has a contingency.
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Old 01-21-2011, 02:04 PM
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If you call cheating the intentional disregard of the rules (for whatever reason) then yes, there are a lot of people "cheating" out there.

If you break it down to a finer level, I think that the cars that are not 100% legal fall into 3 catagories:

1) There is an illegal modification with minimal performance impact that was previously done to the car that is too expensive for the current owner to correct.

2) The current owner made illegal modifications not for performance but to increase reliability. Running ARP rod bolts, dual race IMS bearings, billet cam chain tensioners and GT3 oil pumps are all technically illegal, but do not improve performance, only reliability.

3) The car has illegal performance enhancing improvements that the owner is fully aware of.
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Old 01-21-2011, 02:16 PM
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^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
You are completely under-estimating the desire to win and boost one's stature amongst his/her peers. The formula for winning is no different for a successful entrepreneur than for his/her interest in motor racing. You can take the long road or the short cut and still get to the top of the podium and it is possible that only you will know what road was taken. Like all things in life it is not always fair.

BTW winning tire or even cash never adds up to the amount you put into the car etc so winning is not financially beneficial to anyone but the race shops on an amateur level.
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Old 01-21-2011, 02:20 PM
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Originally Posted by jscott82 View Post
...it was expected that the top competitors bend (not break) the rules, specifically referring to stock class... What I am referring to here are the little things, misplaced ballast weight, not so legal coatings, porting, etc. Not the big stuff, gears, chips, etc...
I make no comment on PCA Club racing. However putting my NASA 944 Spec officials hat on EVERTHING above is cheating. No "bending of the rules" Some items may get you a "fix it and don't do it again", a one race DQ only, or other a multi race suspension. Alot depends on how plausible the argument of "Oh I did not know" might be. Ballast 6" out position is not like porting. You don't port by accident.
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Old 01-21-2011, 02:24 PM
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I talk to cheaters on a pretty much daily basis. My official position on it is every customer is responsible for knowing the rules in their own class and following them accordingly. However, I have run gearcharts for people that are 1 tooth off stock. I don't discuss with them what they are doing. It's none of my business really. But I do know from firsthand experience that it does happen.

I am reminded of an experience from last year. I had a customer call to inquire about an LSD for a Boxster 5spd. He asked where people were using our differential in Boxsters. I mentioned a couple of different places like NASA and Grand-Am and included BSR. The conversation finished and I hung up.

About 2 weeks later I saw a post on a forum about how he had spoken to me and that I didn't know the rules because BSR doesn't allow LSDs. I didn't bother to post and tell him that I wasn't the niave one.

And then there's Dan Jacobs. He's not running our LSD in his BSR, but he runs our stickers. It's a head trip he's throwing at the competition. When he showed me the car I just had to laugh.
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Old 01-21-2011, 02:33 PM
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I almost forgot my main point.... and need another option.... the "I didnt know"... Ive seen several instances of that first hand.
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Old 01-21-2011, 02:48 PM
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I am not currently racing PCA, but I know in the SCCA there is a lot of unintended grey area. All rule books have areas that aren't 100% clear, or don't define everything, or technology appears that doesn't fit the current rules. Not everything is cheating. Sometimes there are holes or performance advantages that aren't defined. The only way to straighten it out is by protest. I only see cheating as blatant disregard for the rules as written, which to PCA I can't speak.
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Old 01-21-2011, 02:49 PM
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Originally Posted by jscott82 View Post
I almost forgot my main point.... and need another option.... the "I didnt know"... Ive seen several instances of that first hand.
Yeah, I've seen the "I didn't know", and for real too. One guy that I know of bought a car that was way too fast down the straight. Won some races that he shouldn't have too. Finally puked the motor and when it was rebuilt (legally this time) he lost over a second a lap. Couldn't figure out why either.
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Old 01-21-2011, 03:00 PM
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Is this a rhetorical question?

Where there is racing, some people will try and find an unfair advantage. I've seen it, in NASA, and in the PCA.

The bigger question is how do you find it, and stamp it out?

This can be tricky, because, as posted above, the intent & effectiveness of the illegal mods varies a lot. Also, the amount of intervention required can be painful (engine teardowns, etc.)

I've seen steel a-arms modified to increase the track width, and look stock. Blatant cheating, yet was claimed to be "in the spirit" of the rules because it was cheap to do/done at home.


I've seen aLexan quarter window put in on one side to allow for ducting of air in. Not legal in 944 Spec/SP1 rules the same as the first example, but not rising to near the same level of intent/egregiousness.
... and fix it for the next event. I have a big supply of stock parts to hand out for this sort of stuff.

It is important not fall for the "it doesn't have any advantage" arguement, because this is a very slippery slope, though it may buy you some leniency in the form of time to fix it.
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Old 01-21-2011, 03:19 PM
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When interviewing some folks before diving into SRF, I asked about cheating. The response was that it was very, very hard to cheat, and easy to spot.

"How do you spot a cheater?"
"He passes you."

Cheating in amateur racing is really odd. What's the benefit other than a hollow victory (maybe)?
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Old 01-21-2011, 03:33 PM
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Originally Posted by GTgears View Post
And then there's Dan Jacobs. He's not running our LSD in his BSR, but he runs our stickers. It's a head trip he's throwing at the competition. When he showed me the car I just had to laugh.
Awesome.

When I used to autocross, a friend with a stock RX7 had an Iskenderian Cams sticker on his car.

My car that I am bringing to Sebring is 100% legal, it's too hard to cheat in GTA2. I'll try harder.
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