View Poll Results: Is there cheating in PCA Racing
No, We are all gentlemen
30
14.29%
Yes, Other people but not me
144
68.57%
Yes, I have a few secrets of my own
36
17.14%
Voters: 210. You may not vote on this poll
Do people cheat in PCA Club Racing?
#241
Rennlist Member
I think I got it. Rookies and sore losers support dynos -- real racers just take corners faster.
#242
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by Coloradoheel
just a couple of thoughts and some recommendations for the new guys after having read this entire thread.
Your racing mentality and approach to preparation, improving your own performance and being successful (as you define success) is critical.
Whether there is cheating or not, I think the best mental approach to take is to assume that no one cheats. If you assume others cheat it will become a mental crutch and barrier to your own development as a racer.
"I can never beat that guy, he's a damned cheater" will almost certainly result in you never beating "that guy".
There is a certain SPB guy that is well known and a very very good driver. I've heard others call him a cheater. No way is he a cheater. What he is, is a guy that practices more than anyone I know, studies data religiously, tinkers with setup, etc. All the things necessary to be a great racer. Can I beat him? Nope - not yet - he's just a better driver that puts more into his preparation and practice than I am able to. Will I beat him? I hope to, and am certainly working toward that.
Your racing mentality and approach to preparation, improving your own performance and being successful (as you define success) is critical.
Whether there is cheating or not, I think the best mental approach to take is to assume that no one cheats. If you assume others cheat it will become a mental crutch and barrier to your own development as a racer.
"I can never beat that guy, he's a damned cheater" will almost certainly result in you never beating "that guy".
There is a certain SPB guy that is well known and a very very good driver. I've heard others call him a cheater. No way is he a cheater. What he is, is a guy that practices more than anyone I know, studies data religiously, tinkers with setup, etc. All the things necessary to be a great racer. Can I beat him? Nope - not yet - he's just a better driver that puts more into his preparation and practice than I am able to. Will I beat him? I hope to, and am certainly working toward that.
If you're in a Spec class and aren't doing well, it's you. Drill that into your head. Don't make excuses. Figure out why you're slow and fix you. It's all up to you you you!
#245
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
just a couple of thoughts and some recommendations for the new guys after having read this entire thread.
Your racing mentality and approach to preparation, improving your own performance and being successful (as you define success) is critical.
Whether there is cheating or not, I think the best mental approach to take is to assume that no one cheats. If you assume others cheat it will become a mental crutch and barrier to your own development as a racer.
"I can never beat that guy, he's a damned cheater" will almost certainly result in you never beating "that guy".
There is a certain SPB guy that is well known and a very very good driver. I've heard others call him a cheater. No way is he a cheater. What he is, is a guy that practices more than anyone I know, studies data religiously, tinkers with setup, etc. All the things necessary to be a great racer. Can I beat him? Nope - not yet - he's just a better driver that puts more into his preparation and practice than I am able to. Will I beat him? I hope to, and am certainly working toward that.
Your racing mentality and approach to preparation, improving your own performance and being successful (as you define success) is critical.
Whether there is cheating or not, I think the best mental approach to take is to assume that no one cheats. If you assume others cheat it will become a mental crutch and barrier to your own development as a racer.
"I can never beat that guy, he's a damned cheater" will almost certainly result in you never beating "that guy".
There is a certain SPB guy that is well known and a very very good driver. I've heard others call him a cheater. No way is he a cheater. What he is, is a guy that practices more than anyone I know, studies data religiously, tinkers with setup, etc. All the things necessary to be a great racer. Can I beat him? Nope - not yet - he's just a better driver that puts more into his preparation and practice than I am able to. Will I beat him? I hope to, and am certainly working toward that.
#247
Nordschleife Master
There are a lot of folks racing that have hundreds of races under their belt. It unrealistic to think that someone with only a few will be just as fast. And yes, there are some folks that race for years that just can't accept that some folks are faster than they are. I think I've maybe lost 3 races of the ~100 I've done to someone I wasn't sure was running a legal car; the rest of the time I was just just out driven or out setup.
Last edited by 38D; 06-21-2017 at 11:12 PM.
#248
Three Wheelin'
I joined up as a PCA scruit a few years ago. I have been doing track data for years and was concerned that the scruits would improperly read data being gathered. I am happy to say that the PCA scruits do a great job, thanks to training and experience using the equipment. I've worked as a scruit a few races and can say that a significant effort is being made by the Sterwards and Scruits to keep thinks honest. I have personally looked at data and, like Frank said, it is amazing that those "cheaters" drive thru the corners faster than others in a similar class, like SPB or SP 996. I have seen some amazing driving via data. However, every now and then PCA finds someone outside the limits of the rules. A couple things I have personally found is improper gearing. This wasn't due to intentional cheating, it was in cars that are 25 ish years old and who know what these gcars have gone thru in the past. These cars change hands a number of times and usuall are sold as "Class legal". The current "Gear Checker" will identify cars like these over time and get everyone back into legal status. I really think PCA racers are feeling better about the cars being legal.
#249
WRONGLY ACCUSED!
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
People thinking other people are cheating is, in my opinion, the leading cause of cheating. If you walk around thinking anyone beating you is cheating, as someone else said, you become "that guy".
Being beat by a guy who runs a clean race makes me look at my data and hire a coach, not hurl accusations of cheating.
I have not had a case where I believed someone who beat me was cheating and know the reverse is true as well.
That being said, in the words of Ronald Reagan: "Trust, but verify."
I'm in favor of increased scrutes and publicly listing names and infractions. If someone is 5lbs underweight that is a world of difference from having the wrong engine or gears. We all know it.
Being beat by a guy who runs a clean race makes me look at my data and hire a coach, not hurl accusations of cheating.
I have not had a case where I believed someone who beat me was cheating and know the reverse is true as well.
That being said, in the words of Ronald Reagan: "Trust, but verify."
I'm in favor of increased scrutes and publicly listing names and infractions. If someone is 5lbs underweight that is a world of difference from having the wrong engine or gears. We all know it.
#251
Rennlist Member
For G - I've heard things but on the track I haven't seen much difference in motor - some but not much. I did enjoy racing Doug C because we were dead f'ing even in a straight line (now he's in E and I'm on track hiatus). My motor is a "junkyard" RSA motor btw, unopened, but w/ chip and headers.
I've heard of some pretty crazy dynos out there for some of the G 964s but have been on track w/ them and only 1 pulls me at Summit - but not by a lot and I'm down on hp just from being Stuttgart stock. Will stay that way until leakdowns tell me to rebuild.
There is 1 out there that zingged by me up the toe a few years back - shift points seemed very odd which makes sense since that is where a 964 really, really, really sucks - 60-65 mph corners - unless you have custom gears.
I've heard of some pretty crazy dynos out there for some of the G 964s but have been on track w/ them and only 1 pulls me at Summit - but not by a lot and I'm down on hp just from being Stuttgart stock. Will stay that way until leakdowns tell me to rebuild.
There is 1 out there that zingged by me up the toe a few years back - shift points seemed very odd which makes sense since that is where a 964 really, really, really sucks - 60-65 mph corners - unless you have custom gears.
#252
WRONGLY ACCUSED!
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Just so I don't sound so sanctimonious I will say that while I have never accused anyone of cheating mechanically I have had a few conversations with other drivers about dangerous or unsportsmanlike driving. Being dive bombed or driven off the track is not fun but it happens for a variety of reasons and it is not always because the other guy is trying to be unsportsmanlike. Sometimes they just are not aware.
Its hard not to get red mist when it happens but I think I learned my lesson last year that it is better to try to talk with the other driver rather than get all bent out of shape. You can solve a lot with a conversation.
Everyone who knows me knows that I am very zen.
Its hard not to get red mist when it happens but I think I learned my lesson last year that it is better to try to talk with the other driver rather than get all bent out of shape. You can solve a lot with a conversation.
Everyone who knows me knows that I am very zen.
#253
Rennlist Member
I have witnessed first hand a few things that I can only describe as cheating, but most of them where off track. Like a car that sets a new lap record and gets shown the scales sign on the way in. His pit was opposite mine and I saw the car get a full jug of gas before going to scales. Or the car that won two sprints and got shown the scales sign and while he is sitting in line for the scales, drinks 5 bottles of water. He was legal by 1 pound when weighed. Saw a SPB spin both wheel rear wheels in a straight line in the rain and I know my car won't do that with it's factory stock open diff.
So, are there cheaters? Yeah, there are because I have personally witnessed it. Have I seen many cars pull me on track? Not really.
My point is, cheating doesn't always happen on track or is as apparent in the car. I laugh when I witnessed each of these. Only people they are cheating is themselves with their shallow victories.
So, are there cheaters? Yeah, there are because I have personally witnessed it. Have I seen many cars pull me on track? Not really.
My point is, cheating doesn't always happen on track or is as apparent in the car. I laugh when I witnessed each of these. Only people they are cheating is themselves with their shallow victories.
#255
Nordschleife Master
There are still issues, there were a number of NASA racers that cheated the dyno via the ECU by tying into the ABS sensors. That is, ECU parameters are different if front wheels are moving vs standing still.