333pg333

To digress, I'm having trouble rationalising this 'get off the brakes sooner-don't coast-carry more corner speed-shallower apex-roll into the corner' syndrome that has been the topic of a few threads lately.

At my last mid week open trackday which I had a pro coach (unfortunatly cut short due to stuffed rotor and cap) I found that he got off the brakes sooner for sure. I carried more speed deeper into the corners (sometimes substantially) but he came out of the corners faster. So far so good. This is obvious enough...but he did 'seem' to coast if that's the right term between braking and corner entry. It was as if he got off the brakes and then 'rolled' into the corner with some trail braking and then was able to push harder and sooner on corner exit. I partially think this is due to him usually driving Cup cars (rear engine) and I also think that the 951 can be driven a little deeper than the rear engined cars, but I will look forward to doing some more comprehensive back to back driving with him again.

Not saying that my style is better at all. However when I tried his method briefly at the end of the last session it felt like I was over slowing which was probably due to braking with a similar cadence to the later braking method.

So I am trying to 'feel' in my mind's eye just what happens between getting off the brakes sooner and corner entry I guess? Just seems like there's an element of coasting even though you can still be carrying plenty of speed. Alternatively I guess you could brake more lightly but for long enough to trail into corner entry...or brake earlier and lighter and coast into corner entry at a high-ish speed and brake again with trail. The Pro was trying to get me to come off the brakes more softly so as to retain better balance. Therefore I think he braked more softly on and off, earlier and for a bit longer which enabled him to drive through and out of the corner with more speed than me. I tended to brake later with more speed and get off the brakes faster and more abruptly, so the potential for me to spin or lose corner drive speed was apparent.

I'm sure I'm not the only one in here contemplating similar theories.

mdrums

Patrick, I surely donlt have the answer...but...thanks for asking this question. I experienced something like this with my coach last month.

I was braking to late and getting off the brake too late and to abruptly...that was my issue....all my PCA instructors taught me to brake as late as possible and I was...and I was threshold brake almost friggin' everywhere.

So my instructor fixed all that for me. He had me braking a little earlier, less brake force and smoothly and getting off the brake earlierand " rolling " the car into the corner. This wasn't all corners at Sebring nut some of them. Yeah on some corners there was a little so called coasting and some corners very light braking...trailing the brake very little or slowly squeezing on some throttle.

However due to this my car was better balanced going into the corner and at the apex and I was able to get on the throttle sooner in some of the corners. Race Keeper data showed I was up in some corners 5-10mph!

I'd like to hear what VR and Seth have to say about this?

wanna911

I say if you can find them, watch the videos of the pro guys at your local track. I just started doing this kind of on accident because I tried it once and it worked, happened to be the week before the first thread (I saw) came up on this. In studying videos of the pro guys though I am getting the braking and turn in points right, but some of these guys are still significantly earlier on the gas than me. Not sure how much of it is in the car and tires, but I'm working on getting better.

That's where Dave will come in handy.

LDadrenaline

It basically is about having a smoother weight balance in a corner. I know when I do my advanced coaching, that's the way I can drop the most time off of peoples' laps. They may be driving "100% apex speed", but because of how upset the car gets under braking, that is only 85-90% of what the car could do in perfect balanced conditions.

333pg333

Yes Mike, I knew you were at a similar point. Not sure if you video your sessions and if so, how much of a library you have, but I find it's good to watch back and look at progress. Especially if you have film of Pros driving your car as wanna911 mentions.

See you touch on the crux of my question. This 'rolling' into a corner is what I think could be construed as coasting...but it's not really. You're still carrying plenty of speed and you just squeeze yourself off the brakes and into the throttle. It sort of feels slower at first, especially compared to the divebombing threshold style that is fun to do, but as you've noticed there is a lot of new corner speed to be gained which of course translates into speed down the next straight.

I still want to do some better logging of this as I do think rear engine vs transaxle will have some differences. The rear engine cars have so much mid and corner exit traction where the transaxles have so much great balance.

Of course there are many variables to be included in this mix, no need to mention all of them. So we are talking in general terms here too. I have a particular corner in mind for this technique and I feel like it will be more appropriate on slower corners for some reason. Perhaps that's just a misconception on my part, but you know what it's like when you just get an image in your mind and you just want to solve one particular 'area'.

Mahler9th

To me the answers are based on theory. If the car is a perfect object of physics, then the fastest lap is achieved with the highest average throttle opening... things break down from that (of course we have to stay on the track).

To me braking is all about "just enough." Losing just enough speed, no more, to achieve the ultimate exit speed. This is what I chase.

I use the term threshold braking to describe braking at the limits of the vehicles capability. I believe we should and do attempt threshold braking often, but there are times when we don't. So not all braking is threshold braking depending on the variables.

I never focus on braking later or teach it. I try to teach "losing just enough speed at the right time to achieve max exit speed." The way I teach/instruct/coach, students have always seemed to respond better when the focus isn't on going in as deep as possible with abrupt application of brakes. When the focus is on just enough at the right time, my students have always seemed to do better.

As for abrupt application of braking forces, I am sure there are a wide range of situations where that makes sense under certain conditions with certain assumptions and variables. But in my experience with the range of vehicles we drive and enjoy, drivers are better off if they learn to be smooth and apply the "just enough at the right time approach."

This approach was stamped in my mind in 1987 when I watched Going Faster 2-3 times before my first ever performance driving experience at Lime Rock Park in my 944. It has stuck with me. It helps that I watch that video 1 or 2 times each winter offseason. This winter marks the 24th year.

Mahler9th

By the way, at the highest levels, I do not think it matters whether you are driving a 400 bhp 951 that weighs 2500 pounds or a 700 tt 911 that weighs 1900 pounds. Sure there are some different things that makes sense with turbo cars. I started in one... heavy high bhp 951, but when I switched to a light, high displacement 911 the approach still made sense. What was different with the turbo car was dealing with the onset of bhp with.... boost in the search for the best exit speed.

Mahler9th

If in every single corner on the second lap, your exit speed is 300 rpm higher than the lap before in the same gear, you will have gone faster.

Mahler9th

If in every single corner you braked 200 feet later, or had greater entry or mid-corner speed, I am not sure what to tell you. Whether that lap is faster... depends.

333pg333

That's a good point. I tossed this around my tiny brain for a while. The sense of braking late, catching up to cars in front (although this can be an optical illusion) vs getting off the gas early...just didn't feel as fast, but this was often an amateur mistake on my part. Despite all this my car and I have achieved some presentable times recently so I'm looking forward to trying some new methods this coming season. That and the major rebuild of the car should prove enticing.

The track we mostly drive at is what can be termed a momentum circuit. So this style should be even more effective.

Gary R.

Wow, VR and Seth? There goes Guinness's world record for hat size, cause Dave's head will never fit in anything off the rack now!

SundayDriver

Consider how we progress as drivers.

1. With no track experience, the tendency is to early apex, so as we learn the line, we are taught to take a late apex (at least it feels late).

2. DE's love the truly late apex. It is much safer. I have seen cases where the apex cone is set 20-30 feet late. Late apex is not only the safe line, but the best way to learn a track. Make it late then start backing it up till you find the fastest apex.

3. After we learn the line, the next phase of increasing speed comes from corner exit. Porsche instructors (especially) like the "Slow in, fast out" phrase. But like everything, we tend to take it too far as students. So now we have late apexes and are overslowing the entry.

4. The next phase of speed is to work on entry speed. We have to adjust the apex and start to carry entry speed. The current popular phrase for this is rolling the car into the corner. Over-braking not only tends to over-slow the car, but it is off balance and is unable to carry max entry/mid corner speed.

What I teach is to think about a long sweeping, decreasing radius corner. It is obvious to an intermediate or advanced student that you do not do all you braking early -because in that corner you are way too slow in the early part of the corner. So you are already thinking about entry and mid-corner speed. Now apply that to almost all the other corners.

5. When you start to get that, then you start to adjust braking to a later point. Max braking without upsetting the balance.

The biggest issue with teaching 'rolling' the car, or max entry speed, is that there is no longer a cushion for error. It you are at the limit at entry and make a mistake during that phase, you are going off.

bobt993

One of the methods you can use to practice corner speeds is the "no brakes" drill. You attempt to drive the track with minimal brakes. Instead of flying down the the front straight at 135mph your going to hit around 90 or 100mph max and attempt to get the car slowed by coming off the gas and letting the car slow itself down. When the time delta is expanded your senses adjust and your able to enter the corners faster and more balanced. Now you need to work on reproducing the entry speed by not upsetting the car as much and leaning only on one tire. If you have a circuit near you that offers a chicane prior to a high speed turn and you can run the course both with and without the chicane then absolutely do this. We have such a track locally and it shows clearly that with the chicane added, entry into the next corner is typically faster because the amount of braking needed is less.

As far as "rolling" or early apexing. It is corner dependent and the idea is to remove the abrupt transition of brakes to gas. Coasting is the opposite (gas to brakes pause) and is lazy pedal transition. I look for the largest radius I can effectively follow through a corner and maintain max grip. If your able to go wide open throttle before the end of the arc then your entry was to slow and your basically running after the bus you just missed. Keep in mind certain corners award different techniques.

PedroNole

The term "rolling into a corner" is really all about the feel of the car underneath you and how it transitions and takes a "set" upon corner entry. The "roll" part of the entry is different in every car even from one stock Cup car to the next. It has to do with angle of entry, front and rear bar settings, shocks, springs, corner radius, etc.

The main point of the few discussions lately (which I've been at odds with some on) is that you want to roll as much entry speed as you can without missing the apex and roll as much mid-corner speed as you can without missing the exit (defined as leaving too much room or not having enough room at the exit). Once you get this down, it's time to get some data and a coach to fine tune mid-corner to exit part of the corner so that you are not "coasting" too much in mid-corner and you are catching people on the EXIT and not the ENTRY of the corner.

Veloce Raptor

I think Peter PedroNole came closest in explaining it. To me, it is harder to explain than demonstrate, unfortunately, but the crux is twofold: loading the weighted side of the suspension earlier & more gently in order to maintain a more balaced set with less unloading of the unweighted tires; and using less steering angle to increase the radius of the corner thus killing less speed via front tire scrub.

The very best drivers carry mad speed way deep into the corner (not to be confused with where they may or may not brake in qualifying versus competing for position), make needed corrections to the attitude of the car in the very compressed midcorner/apex area, and than carry this mad speed out again. They may often appear somewhat busy at the wheel on in-car videos....but the car will be serene.

Peter, I saw your trailer at Sebring but no you.








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