???..about the 'new' corner technique...
01-20-2011, 11:22 PM
#63
Rennlist Member
Maybe next year we can spend some time together talking about wings... 
Are these P90X supplements supposed to make you hungry and aggressive?
Are these P90X supplements supposed to make you hungry and aggressive?
Last edited by Gary R.; 01-20-2011 at 11:40 PM.
01-21-2011, 12:06 AM
#64
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Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Land of the Old People
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VR and Peter-
I was in Cali with my wife... First time I missed PBOC in about 4 years. It was worth it though! As MGM had more cars than their hauler could carry, I let them use my trailer. The trailer and I BOTH will be there for the 48 Hours...
Anyone who sees my trailer (Boxing Cat) or the MGM rig and wants to b.s. about how great we all are, please feel free to pull up a chair and join in the lies...
I was in Cali with my wife... First time I missed PBOC in about 4 years. It was worth it though! As MGM had more cars than their hauler could carry, I let them use my trailer. The trailer and I BOTH will be there for the 48 Hours...
Anyone who sees my trailer (Boxing Cat) or the MGM rig and wants to b.s. about how great we all are, please feel free to pull up a chair and join in the lies...
Last edited by PedroNole; 01-21-2011 at 09:14 AM.
01-21-2011, 12:19 AM
#65
Rennlist Member
P90X? Uh......
Professional Racing and Driving Coach
01-21-2011, 12:26 AM
#66
Rennlist Member
Well, as much as I hate promoting, well,,, ...anything.. the workouts in P90 are kick-*** to an old fart like me!
Cups and Saucers may work., but isn't hat AFTER the race?
Cups and Saucers may work., but isn't hat AFTER the race?
01-21-2011, 11:38 AM
#68
By the way, I should think it would be hard for anyone to have resting heart rate while driving approaching the limits on a race track. 2-3x resting is what I suggest to students to expect. Unfortunately I have been around long enough to have lost friends to MI's brought on by driving on racing tracks.
01-21-2011, 12:41 PM
#71
Rennlist Member
My cornering:
I am to scared to look for marks, or points, I just "eyebal" the corner in fear.
When approcaching the corner get really scared so I brake hard, but never upsetting the car because I am scared it will do something funny, still scared I turn in a bit early shortening the track with rotation and because I am so scared I gently release the brakes and while still scared go gently on the gas being scared that the nose might not grip, once gripping, in fear, but knowing the grip is in the gas pedal, I gently go to the floor and floor it through the corner, because I am too scared to lift.. O crap there's the next corner...
I am to scared to look for marks, or points, I just "eyebal" the corner in fear.
When approcaching the corner get really scared so I brake hard, but never upsetting the car because I am scared it will do something funny, still scared I turn in a bit early shortening the track with rotation and because I am so scared I gently release the brakes and while still scared go gently on the gas being scared that the nose might not grip, once gripping, in fear, but knowing the grip is in the gas pedal, I gently go to the floor and floor it through the corner, because I am too scared to lift.. O crap there's the next corner...
i realize it is probably pointless to verbalize but still, as all i can do now is to read forums until April when NHMS opens, why not to ask...
01-21-2011, 01:33 PM
#72
Three Wheelin'
putting 'scared' factor aside - in the highlighted section, it is exactly what I feel - an upset of front grip during transition from braking to throttle, is there anything what should be done differently to limit that other than a 'gut' feeling of how much your back is pressed into seat and judging by that what grip to expect? as i understand you kinda need to maintain outside tire load level but with acceleration you 'lift' your nose so you get less grip there no matter what. only practical way I found to partially limit this was to put 265 tires in front. this way nose became way more stable.
i realize it is probably pointless to verbalize but still, as all i can do now is to read forums until April when NHMS opens, why not to ask...
i realize it is probably pointless to verbalize but still, as all i can do now is to read forums until April when NHMS opens, why not to ask...
01-21-2011, 01:41 PM
#73
Rennlist Member
means brake has to be operated by left foot? or essentially same technique as with H&T 'blip' - just brake with foot ball and roll out foot into gas pedal slowly while still braking?
i am trying to remember now if 997 ECU even allows for starting adding throttle input while brake pedal is still engaged. i am probably mixing it up - it probably cuts throttle if you have your right foot on gas and activate brakes with left foot, not when you were braking and then start applying throttle, otherwise a H&T blip would not be possible, right? one way or another I am not ready for left foot braking on a track, not yet.
Last edited by utkinpol; 01-21-2011 at 02:02 PM.
01-21-2011, 02:46 PM
#74
Race Director
putting 'scared' factor aside - in the highlighted section, it is exactly what I feel - an upset of front grip during transition from braking to throttle, is there anything what should be done differently to limit that other than a 'gut' feeling of how much your back is pressed into seat and judging by that what grip to expect? as i understand you kinda need to maintain outside tire load level but with acceleration you 'lift' your nose so you get less grip there no matter what. only practical way I found to partially limit this was to put 265 tires in front. this way nose became way more stable.
i realize it is probably pointless to verbalize but still, as all i can do now is to read forums until April when NHMS opens, why not to ask...
i realize it is probably pointless to verbalize but still, as all i can do now is to read forums until April when NHMS opens, why not to ask...
Think you need more oversteer on the way into the turns.
Here is what I am thinking.
At Corner entry your front tires are working too hard. So your front tires may be 99% of cornering capacity with the rears at 90%. When you transition from brake to throttle you move weight front the front to the rear. This means if the fronts were working at 99% taking weight off will put the over 100% and the front may wash out. However if you enter the turn balance the other way 95% front and at 99% on the rear you still have some margin to lose some front grip potential when you accelerate and still keep the tires gripping.
In my 944 I rarely get any front wash out on throttle transition. It probably helps to have very little hp, but I also have soft springs (330lbs wheel rate). Even so I tend to have get on the gas hard to catch a spin. This means my rear tires at or above max load so by getting on the throttle hard the car just hooks up. Now I don't confuse this with corner exit full throttle understeer. Corner entry for me is all about keeping the rear end tucked in and making steering corrections to control the rear end. The front end goes along for the ride. This applies to high speed or low speed corners. There turn 3 at Miller motorsports part. It is nearly flat out turn taken a 85 mph. In my car I lift every so slightly at turn in to get weight on the nose an doff the rear, turn and the get back on the gas to catch the spin. Failing to get back on the gas will case a spin. However I cannot enter that turn flat since my front will wash out. By putting weght on the front in the form of throttle lift I get the car to turn in limited by rear grip rather than front. I just about every corner at turn in I try to use weight transfer to the front to get front end to stick while removing grip form the rear unitl I have turn my car enough to go back to the throttle and accelerate out. It kind of like spining into very corner just catching the spin when pointed the right way.
So maybe you need to trail brake harder to change the balance from front end traction limited at corner entry to rear end traction limited. That way once you go throttle you are not at the limit of front grip and won't exceed it. As for he rear grip the weight transfer from the throttle will gain you more grip potential.
Either that or be more gentle on throttle appliction. It maybe that you are too fast on the throttle and that being a bit more delberate will lessen the rate weight transfer and resulting grip potential changes.
01-21-2011, 03:20 PM
#75
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Hmm,
Think you need more oversteer on the way into the turns.
Here is what I am thinking.
At Corner entry your front tires are working too hard. So your front tires may be 99% of cornering capacity with the rears at 90%. When you transition from brake to throttle you move weight front the front to the rear. This means if the fronts were working at 99% taking weight off will put the over 100% and the front may wash out. However if you enter the turn balance the other way 95% front and at 99% on the rear you still have some margin to lose some front grip potential when you accelerate and still keep the tires gripping.
In my 944 I rarely get any front wash out on throttle transition. It probably helps to have very little hp, but I also have soft springs (330lbs wheel rate). Even so I tend to have get on the gas hard to catch a spin. This means my rear tires at or above max load so by getting on the throttle hard the car just hooks up. Now I don't confuse this with corner exit full throttle understeer. Corner entry for me is all about keeping the rear end tucked in and making steering corrections to control the rear end. The front end goes along for the ride. This applies to high speed or low speed corners. There turn 3 at Miller motorsports part. It is nearly flat out turn taken a 85 mph. In my car I lift every so slightly at turn in to get weight on the nose an doff the rear, turn and the get back on the gas to catch the spin. Failing to get back on the gas will case a spin. However I cannot enter that turn flat since my front will wash out. By putting weght on the front in the form of throttle lift I get the car to turn in limited by rear grip rather than front. I just about every corner at turn in I try to use weight transfer to the front to get front end to stick while removing grip form the rear unitl I have turn my car enough to go back to the throttle and accelerate out. It kind of like spining into very corner just catching the spin when pointed the right way.
So maybe you need to trail brake harder to change the balance from front end traction limited at corner entry to rear end traction limited. That way once you go throttle you are not at the limit of front grip and won't exceed it. As for he rear grip the weight transfer from the throttle will gain you more grip potential.
Either that or be more gentle on throttle appliction. It maybe that you are too fast on the throttle and that being a bit more delberate will lessen the rate weight transfer and resulting grip potential changes.
Think you need more oversteer on the way into the turns.
Here is what I am thinking.
At Corner entry your front tires are working too hard. So your front tires may be 99% of cornering capacity with the rears at 90%. When you transition from brake to throttle you move weight front the front to the rear. This means if the fronts were working at 99% taking weight off will put the over 100% and the front may wash out. However if you enter the turn balance the other way 95% front and at 99% on the rear you still have some margin to lose some front grip potential when you accelerate and still keep the tires gripping.
In my 944 I rarely get any front wash out on throttle transition. It probably helps to have very little hp, but I also have soft springs (330lbs wheel rate). Even so I tend to have get on the gas hard to catch a spin. This means my rear tires at or above max load so by getting on the throttle hard the car just hooks up. Now I don't confuse this with corner exit full throttle understeer. Corner entry for me is all about keeping the rear end tucked in and making steering corrections to control the rear end. The front end goes along for the ride. This applies to high speed or low speed corners. There turn 3 at Miller motorsports part. It is nearly flat out turn taken a 85 mph. In my car I lift every so slightly at turn in to get weight on the nose an doff the rear, turn and the get back on the gas to catch the spin. Failing to get back on the gas will case a spin. However I cannot enter that turn flat since my front will wash out. By putting weght on the front in the form of throttle lift I get the car to turn in limited by rear grip rather than front. I just about every corner at turn in I try to use weight transfer to the front to get front end to stick while removing grip form the rear unitl I have turn my car enough to go back to the throttle and accelerate out. It kind of like spining into very corner just catching the spin when pointed the right way.
So maybe you need to trail brake harder to change the balance from front end traction limited at corner entry to rear end traction limited. That way once you go throttle you are not at the limit of front grip and won't exceed it. As for he rear grip the weight transfer from the throttle will gain you more grip potential.
Either that or be more gentle on throttle appliction. It maybe that you are too fast on the throttle and that being a bit more delberate will lessen the rate weight transfer and resulting grip potential changes.
I spent 9 years tracking a 944, then 2 in a Cayman S, and now 2+ in a 996. They all behave slightly differently during the transition from braking to mid-corner and require, to be at their best, slightly different degrees of either overlap or delay in the cadence of driver inputs (even though the general sequencing of those inputs is the same for all 3).