Veloce Raptor

Data. The friend who helped me sort it out, Seth, was not physically present when I was driving it at below my potential. I emailed him a bit of my data and asked for advice.








Professional Racing and Driving Coach

Mahler9th

Interesting..

"I was going overboard on the late apex thinking the more throttle I had on exit (even at the expense of entry, mid corner and exit speed) the faster I was going."

Does this mean you had more throttle on exit as measured somehow but your actual exit speed was slower? This seems interesting to me. My simplistic view of exit speed as a reference is to pick a specific repeatable point and measure the rpms for a given gear. However you get to more is better, as long as you don't kill yourself, someone else or the car... or ruin the next puzzle piece.

Mahler9th

Thanks VR.

Mahler9th

Cheyenne:

I am curious about this:

"After learning a lot, I started reading the usual books to compare what I'd learned with what was known to everyone else. So I'm confident I came to the right conclusions, and now I'm hoping to leverage my experience into a teaching method that jumps ahead of what we all do now, but I have a ways to go, and I'm sure I'd still have to prove myself at a track, or in auto-X before I'd be given credibility."

What books did you use for comparison? Since you are local to me, I can tell that you have some opportunities with local groups that offer some great track and AX opportunities. One I might try to leverage is an opportunity to work with Hank Watts at a place like Laguna Seca. For example with the Coastal Driving School. If not Hank, try Quickxotica (John) at any local track with the PCA GGR. He is an excellent driver and I'd guess an excellent teacher. He is the CDI for PCA GGR. He makes one heck of a funny cartoon too.

Veloce Raptor

Actually, now that I think about it more (it was several years ago) it was data AND video, not just data. The data showed the loss of speed & the excess steering angle, the video showed that I was slightly off in inputs & car placement from optimal.








Professional Racing and Driving Coach

utkinpol

seriously speaking, I would not dare to do 10/10 on a public road with its horrible pavement, narrow track and all that stuff sticking around. at moore airfield we have a full airstrip worth of space and workers at safe distance who can save your *** in case of a trouble.
doing same stunts on a street like miscalculated 90 degree turn into 15ft gate from 70mph will result in lost traction, spin, hard hit on a sidewalk barrier and a turn over. childish stuff.

it is fun to see drifting artists to do various stunts and rally drivers doing 180 turns sliding around front axle, but it is a different sport. all i can say, in 2 seasons i did about of 45 AX days probably and 5 DE days last season, a lot of more things to learn but even by now i can say that I totally lost any desire to do or 'learn' anything on a street where I cannot trust my grip, have no timing to control my runs, cannot repeat same exact laps with minor alterations, it is truly not even comparable. or may be i simply live in place with horrible roads and very evil cops (MA) which is totally true.

Cheyenne

I think the issue here is that Mario is not making a physical statement so much as a philosophical one. Because I agree with him instinctively, but when I analyze it, of course, the brakes are to slow the car!

But philosophically, it's all about getting the car through the corner, and with as little loss of momentum as possible. Looking at the brakes as a cornering enabler helps to keep your focus on how side thrust is generated by coming off the brakes, due to the traction becoming available again. I turn the wheel a set amount, then feed in side thrust easing off up to the apex, and transition to gas and start unwinding. I dunno if this is the best method in most situations, but it sure feels good in many. So to me it's almost inverted, it's more about coming off the brakes than when they're on, as when they're on I'm just trying to keep from locking them, but as I'm releasing them the magic of turn in is happening, one of the best parts of driving!


No, going too fast on the street is not cool. I have 8000 hours of "training" experience, in addition to the regular driving the average person does. Part of that was several years of 100+ miles a day in the local hills after work. A large part of what I was learning along with driving dynamics was situational dynamics and issues relating to doing what I did safely. The reality is that having that kind of time invested, with very few close calls, very few spins (5, stayed in my lane for all of them, all low speed) means not that I was super lucky or super skilled, but that I was very conservative, and did most of my most intense work no more than 5 mph over the limit, if that. Dull stuff compared to hitting the track. For instance, I never allow my heart rate to increase while driving...it means I've done something wrong. Everything should be completely calm and almost boring. Most of the time I've done work that involved sliding around at all or being near the traction limit for more than a second or two has been in situations where only I would get hurt. I've not been perfect, but I remind myself daily about the average of 40,000 people a year who die on the roads. (Last year was a big improvement at a bit over 30,000!).

Just due to the amount of miles I rack up safety needs to be a #1 concern. That said...it's hard to not play a bit sometimes, but I've spent very little time in my life over 100 MPH, and regulate my speed in neighborhoods by visual and actual (rather than assumed) traction/vehicle capabilities. Often this equates to 20mph or less...the better I got at really knowing exactly what my car could do at any second, should I choose to ask it to give it's all, the slower I went in neighborhoods and business districts. I think all neighborhoods should be no faster than 20, 25 is just too much IMHO.

Now...I may have a confidence issue when I get a chance to hit the track cornering at speeds significantly above 100, but I know how to take things slow and make small, constant progress.

I recently read Speed Secrets, and I've read Secrets of Solo Racing. I need to read that one again to compare the information presented, and how it's presented. Then there are a few more well trusted books, and some by racers that I feel I should read for the perspective. I keep my eyes open for comments from racers, and right now this site is my best source of info/comparison.

I like the way the books described most things, but I think there is a possibility of a better way to get to the core of some things. I have a lot of research to do to be sure I have something to offer, in terms of a different perspective that allows accelerated learning.


Ugh, this post is too long.

Cheyenne

Your thinking in this is all external. Turn it around, make it internal.

Safety is created by us staying within our limits, and advancing slowly by feeling our way from the inside, not by stepping outside and then trying to get back in as fast as we can.

You may be safer when you leave the road, out of control, at a track...but if you wreck your car, when will you get back out to play? And safer doesn't mean safe...I read the frightened posts many make here when someone gets hurt at a DE. No safety gear is is good as not crashing in the first place. Sometimes you really can't avoid it, but the vast majority of off track excursions I see in videos were drivers doing too much, too soon, in the name of "learning".

I've never wrecked a car doing what I do (It was still drivable!), and I've never missed that first rain of the season where the roads are extra slippery..I go to the scariest roads, like Alpine Rd or Old San Jose Rd in the Santa Cruz Mountains (Better before they repaved it) and enjoy all the slipping and sliding I want...right up to the yellow lines, or the white line on the right. I can do this, because I never did it until I could do it. It took me longer than it might have...but I didn't have to deal with that whole "burning to death upside down at the bottom of a ravine" thing that can be *so* annoying.



The car that was still drivable was the early experience that taught me that I needed to do something completely different to enjoy driving. I was lucky I hit the embankment, and didn't go down the cliff. I slowed down, and focused on what I could learn at the speed limit...I had no idea it would go so far.

Also, honestly, I learn more at 8/10ths driving than 10/10ths. Flat Out is an expression of what I have learned, to make progress, I need to slow down enough to pay attention to what I'm doing, to see my mistakes.

TRAKCAR

Yeah, same here. Were you really there??

You are so right, so right, so right..I still pinch T1 at Roat ATL too much..

My cornering:
I am to scared to look for marks, or points, I just "eyebal" the corner in fear.
When approcaching the corner get really scared so I brake hard, but never upsetting the car because I am scared it will do something funny, still scared I turn in a bit early shortening the track with rotation and because I am so scared I gently release the brakes and while still scared go gently on the gas being scared that the nose might not grip, once gripping, in fear, but knowing the grip is in the gas pedal, I gently go to the floor and floor it through the corner, because I am too scared to lift.. O crap there's the next corner...

Potomac-Greg

Not exactly Skip Barber material, but funny as hell.

Veloce Raptor

..

333pg333

Just to point out. I'm being super critical of myself and am always looking to improve. I'm not a total newbie and can drove my car to a reasonable standard. I play with different lines and b-points, plus varying throttle applications.
Also going from a 951 with ABS to one without has changed some patterns.

Glad I posted this thread though.

Veloce Raptor

Having ridden with Patrick, in a LHD car he had never been in, on a track he had never been on, I can attest to his skills.









Professional Racing and Driving Coach

Mahler9th

I love that code brown. I have had zero of those moments in my race car lately... but I haven't been driving that much in the past few years and when I have, it has been at Sears Point. It is a lot safer than it used to be, but it is not a place to go off a lot.

Secrets of Solo Racing was written by Hank Watts and I read it back in 1995 or so. He lives in my area. Back in the day I spend a lot of time with Hank and got to discuss a lot with him and to instruct with him. He is a fantastic driver and a fantastic person. I have been recommending his book since I read it. And I always recommend the Going Faster! video as well. That since 1987.

Some of my discussions with Hank about theory and teaching led to his use of the progression/discussion of Going Faster! (video, not book) in the PCA GGR region instruction program when he was CDI.

By the way, 333pg333, I started out in a 951s with ABS, then switched to an '87 951 without. Piece of cake for me, but I never used the ABS in the Turbo S. I lost the Turbo S in the k-wall at Laguna Seca (boost oversteer in third gear which was quite different from second gear situations I experienced in AX), and bought the 1987 car as a replacement from ex-Indy car driver Randy Lewis.

Good luck with your build and with your season!

Mahler9th

By the way, I should think it would be hard for anyone to have resting heart rate while driving approaching the limits on a race track. 2-3x resting is what I suggest to students to expect. Unfortunately I have been around long enough to have lost friends to MI's brought on by driving on racing tracks.