M758

I don't see any one forcing 12k GT3 seats. YOU keep chosing to go there. There are other ways as I have explained that are 10% of that.

Now given that my 944 Turbo is not even worth 12k I could make that arguement about 1.2k for 2 sets of harness, seats, and secure mounts. However DE is not always cheap for us low budget guys.

M758

That is correct. NASA choses not to require seats, harness, etc until race group when the full complment of safety is required. However in DE or even Time Trial cars and still be heavily modded and go fast. What they have chosen to do and works for them. Again it has no bearing on me since I can choose to install what ever safety gear I see fit in any group except race. Now gear that is install must done in a reasonable manner. So while I may not need a harness to run in Time Trial in 997 Turbo with 800hp I can certain chose to do so and in reality what the guy nex to me chooses to run in his car has very little if any impact on me. About the only bad thing is if we have to wait for another ambulance if the guy gets hurt. (yes that is really cold).

dave morris

Thank you Larry for your clear, concise and knowledgeable contribution to this otherwise totally impossible (IMHO) to follow thread.

kurt M

Spot on, let safety and time on track and "tenths" link each other.

IIRC PCA has ruled out 5 or 6 point without the proper seat having mactory holes in the right places.

cello

^ Really no other way to do it reasonably.

And it meets, or -more accurately- does no damage to, the 'spirit' behind the PCA 'Drivers Education Program'.

They can do whatever they want. That said, I hope whatever is infecting that group is not contagious and stays local...

FGL28

You are being disingenuous by comparing a 37 year old Porsche with an expectation of approximately 200 horsepower engine and performance to a car BUILT AND DESIGNED WITH A FACTORY stated 381 horsepower engine and 37 years of innovation in design. The newer car is, by design, a safer car than a 37 year old car.

This thread is looking like a hit piece on the San Diego Region and Zone 8 with the majority of the bashers never having participated in a Zone 8 Event. If SDR and or Zone 8 events are so bad and evil why is it they are so popular? I suggest one come out and see for yourself.

VR,

I assume that even though DE's are non-competitive, you as an instructor, would want a modiifed car to have ALL SAFTEY GEAR TO MAKE YOU FEEL SAFE.

I suggest you look at SIMSGW's post #64 on 6speed.

http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/9...-events-5.html

To see another perspective of the rules.

FWIW
I AM A PAST REGION PRISIDENT AND ONE OF THOSE CLOWNS WHO VOTED FOR THE RULES.

cello

Do not take your past "successful" events for granted.

The 'ALL CAPS' key does not make your position any less wrong-headed.

Run your events the way you want; but, if you are going to recreate the wheel and do it better than everyone else, be ready for the criticism.

If you feel cornered you might step back, reassess your goals, and see if they could be implemented in a less draconian fashion, maybe ??

Just my 0.02 cents.

Edit: That came out harsher than I intended. No doubt the Clubs heart is in the right place here. Its the implementation I have issue with. I think the PCA DE program should be inclusive, not exclusive. That is, PCA DE should be open and should work hard to get people into the fold. It should not look for ways to 'make it hard', to exclude, or to put up obstacles. Get them in, modded car and all, put a good firm instructor in their car, and set rules clearly at the drivers meeting and before that the CHI will enforce. Then, once in the fold, educate them on safety. From what I have seen, its a rare driver that wont end up putting the safety equipment in after enough experience and time in.. To those you exclude or turn away, what have you taught them? How does that benefit your Club or the PCA?

Potomac-Greg

If these had been the rules when I started on this hobby, well, I probably would have stayed with golf. ;-)

Veloce Raptor

First of all, I have neither the time nor inclination to read that 2,500 word post by someone who apparently has nothing better to do.

Second, I don't want to FEEL safe. I want to BE safe. Just like I don't want my country to LOOK strong. I want it to BE strong. And just as others in this thread have pointed out, my #1 safety tool (pun intended) when I get in any car, as instructor or paid coach, is ME. I decide whether I am safe, and if I am not, I decide what I am going to do to change the safety environment. Fact: I have been safer & felt safer riding with a fast, competent driver in a modified car with zero safety improvements and 3 point belts than I have in a car with an overdriving, incompetent driver in a less powerful car with a cage, harnesses, fire bottle, the whole 9 yards.

Third, assigning "points" to car modifications a la racing, and then making the owner install other modifications because of those points, for a DE, is insane and utterly retarded. It smacks of control freaks who don't spend much time in the real world dealing with paying customers, and it smacks of folks in charge who have finally attained the highest level of power they will ever have in their lives.

I always, always advocate that students invest in themselves before pumping up their cars. This means training and safety. I do this in my advanced classrooms and in any other DE student interactions. But in the end, this is THEIR decision. It is my decision whether I get in their car and how I will control their aggression. The last thing I need is some control freak forcing them to buy all sorts of safety gear & giving them a false sense of their own security as they continue to overdrive their now "safe" car.








Professional Racing and Driving Coach

FGL28

cello,

Your point is well taken. The rules are looked at every year to continue the Zone's sucess. But I ask you, are we talking about many guys turned away or just one or two. IIRC at our last event, in November 2010, nobody was turned away. It is all about having fun and driving safely.


It seems to me that most of those who are commenting on Zone 8 driving events are not active in the Zone let alone are on the same coast.


VR,

I sure hope you watch your students drive before deciding on what skills they need help.

Just tell me how you know the instructors are control freaks. Were you an instructor for a Zone event??

As one who polled the students who had instructors in the last event I found that the instructors were found to be helpful and informative.

This is beginning to appear to be one guy who has an issue at a San Diego Region event and even when he is put in contact with with the zone he posts on multiple bulletin boards trying to trash a group who puts on multiple driving events.

9.5 Degrees

I've driven in Zone 8 events and specifically SDR and OCR. SDR is over the top with their regulations. If I had been a newbie when I joined, I would not have driven in their events, period. Luckily, I had outside experience and knowledge before joining and could navigate around their stupid point systems that is akin to racing.

SDR is so **** that they argue over autocross points and old and new systems etc. They are arguing about 2012 class systems.... completely retarded. What ends up happening is that these guys argue endlessly with themselves over how many points they have or not... What is fun about that? Here are the threads just to give you a taste of what goes on in SD.

http://forum.pcasdr.org/forum/viewforum.php?f=1

Bob Rouleau

I can only speak about Zone 1 - the largest region in PCA and the rules established by Zone 8 are very different from ours. It looks like Z8 has confused DE with racing. Maybe given their participants, it makes sense. As a region CI, I agree with VR but that's a personal opinion based on zero knowledge of Z8.

Best,

FGL28

If you do not like the way SDR and OCR are running their events then I suggest the GPX, the SGV / GPX , Santa Barbra, or any of the other Regions events.

Do not lump San Diego into Zone 8 events. I not surprised that you have not written about the Streamlining of the Zone 8 rules to make it easier for novices to enter DE's. Our, non SDR, events are filled so we must be doing something right.

gomez1

The people that run PCA SDR are good people. Do I like all the rules, all the time? No. But overall the people that run it care about it being the best it can be. Nothing is perfect, nor do I think they can please everyone all the time. Same goes for POC.

I'm sure they'll change some things but you can't say they're not trying to make it a good club. I don't think they would ever want to drive anyone away.

Veloce Raptor

Dude, you are getting very defensive. I never said anything of the kind about the instructors. i said the organizers/folks in charge may be control freaks. Read the words I wrote.

A good instructor can figure out within 2-3 corners on a warm up lap if there will be "issues" with a student. I'm just sayin'....

This is beginning to appear to be a classic circle the wagons our way or the highway crowd who is tone deaf to what is in the best interests of their paying customers. Good luck to you.








Professional Racing and Driving Coach