what is going on with zone 8?
01-17-2011, 11:23 AM
#31
Race Director
This looks like nothing new.
if you go to a DE
Stock car = Stock safety gear.
Prepared car = Need a harness - note roll bar or seat is not required, granted it can be hard to use a harness with no proper seat. However if you chose you can modify a stock seat to accept belt holes and and put in secure harness truss rather than a cage. Or you can put in replaceble seats and harness truss and swap back to stock when not on track.
Improved car = Harness, seat and roll bar
Modified car = harness, seat, bar and suit.
Seems like a natural progression where they are forcing more safety gear to go along with more go fast gear. Not a bad idea really.
if you go to a DE
Stock car = Stock safety gear.
Prepared car = Need a harness - note roll bar or seat is not required, granted it can be hard to use a harness with no proper seat. However if you chose you can modify a stock seat to accept belt holes and and put in secure harness truss rather than a cage. Or you can put in replaceble seats and harness truss and swap back to stock when not on track.
Improved car = Harness, seat and roll bar
Modified car = harness, seat, bar and suit.
Seems like a natural progression where they are forcing more safety gear to go along with more go fast gear. Not a bad idea really.
01-17-2011, 11:43 AM
#32
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Joe, your point is logical, but it loses credence when you take the real world probability that a bone stock 997 GT3 will show up that is way faster than most older race cars (944s, SCs, Carreras etc) and the driver only has to buckle his 3 point belt.
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Larry Herman
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Larry Herman
2016 Ford Transit Connect Titanium LWB
2018 Tesla Model 3 - Electricity can be fun!
Retired Club Racer & National PCA Instructor
Past Flames:
1994 RS America Club Racer
2004 GT3 Track Car
1984 911 Carrera Club Racer
1974 914/4 2.0 Track Car
CLICK HERE to see some of my ancient racing videos.
01-17-2011, 12:11 PM
#33
Mr. Excitement
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Maybe other parts of the county look at this differently but getting events to fill up enough to not loose money is not a huge issue while safety is. If you want to just do a DE program that doesn't require strict safety, OTR, speed venture etc. will be more than happy to take your money. If you can afford a $100k GT3 or put suspension and slicks on a 996, you can afford a roll bar, harnesses, fire extinguisher, and buy a fire suit. While none of these things are required for a 100% stock car or even a lightly modified one with SDR or any of Zone 8, they are strongly recommended for everyone. The way the rules stand, you can do 20+ points worth of mods before you are required extra safety equipment. On my '75 911, I have put in a 3.0L motor, different torsion bars, different sway bars, Hoosiers, and some weight reduction and am still not required by the rules to add anymore safety equipment other than a fire extinguisher. I estimate that only maybe 20% of the cars we see at events are daily drivers so pretty much everyone's Porsche is a play car where race modifications and street manners don't conflict. The people who like to attend the wine tours and such that PCA offers as well tend to have a second or third Porsche for such activities or buy one in fairly short order of getting into driving events.
The AX program that SDR runs is more akin to a time attack at a track than they are to a parking lot AX. It is not uncommon to have almost 60mph average speeds and the fast cars topping out at 100mph on some courses, safety is a big concern as a number of cars have been crashed over the years. Off the top of my head, I remember a port a potty getting smashed, and a car going through a chain link fence and this is just at an AX. Stuff happens when you go fast and it is better you prepare for it than get hurt or worse yet sue PCA for allowing you to do something stupid. Prior to this year, you were required to attend 4 AX events before you could sign up for a DE or TT event. While safety is stressed, the instruction I have gotten and now give is more geared for going faster not simply navigating around the track. Mid corner at 120mph through Turn 8 at Willow Springs or 140+mph through Turn 1 at Cal Speedway is not the place to experience oversteer for the first time.
If you are an instructor, you know how scary it is to be in any car with a guy who doesn't know how to drive, let alone a GT3 or a 600+hp turbo. Some take to it quickly, some putter around at half throttle and you have to encourage them to push a little more but secretly fear that they will go off if they do, and then you have the ones that can't drive at all and are out of control from the word go. If you have to sit right seat in one of the latter cars, you will never ever question strict safety rules ever again. Sure it is the responsibility of the instructor to keep students roughly at the correct speed to skill ratio but in the newer cars, you have to be going at potentially lethal speeds before you get anywhere near the limit of the car and driving around at 6/10 it is impossible to learn anything worth while about performance driving. You never know the skill level of a new student and you really are putting your life in their hands as an instructor so planning for the worst case scenario is all you can do.
As long as you follow the rules, SDR puts on a great program and is a good organization to run with. If you don't like the rules, SDR is not the place to go as they have plenty of people that don't have a problem with turning you away in a less than diplomatic manner. They don't hold a grudge though and are some very nice and knowledgeable people if you stick around.
The AX program that SDR runs is more akin to a time attack at a track than they are to a parking lot AX. It is not uncommon to have almost 60mph average speeds and the fast cars topping out at 100mph on some courses, safety is a big concern as a number of cars have been crashed over the years. Off the top of my head, I remember a port a potty getting smashed, and a car going through a chain link fence and this is just at an AX. Stuff happens when you go fast and it is better you prepare for it than get hurt or worse yet sue PCA for allowing you to do something stupid. Prior to this year, you were required to attend 4 AX events before you could sign up for a DE or TT event. While safety is stressed, the instruction I have gotten and now give is more geared for going faster not simply navigating around the track. Mid corner at 120mph through Turn 8 at Willow Springs or 140+mph through Turn 1 at Cal Speedway is not the place to experience oversteer for the first time.
If you are an instructor, you know how scary it is to be in any car with a guy who doesn't know how to drive, let alone a GT3 or a 600+hp turbo. Some take to it quickly, some putter around at half throttle and you have to encourage them to push a little more but secretly fear that they will go off if they do, and then you have the ones that can't drive at all and are out of control from the word go. If you have to sit right seat in one of the latter cars, you will never ever question strict safety rules ever again. Sure it is the responsibility of the instructor to keep students roughly at the correct speed to skill ratio but in the newer cars, you have to be going at potentially lethal speeds before you get anywhere near the limit of the car and driving around at 6/10 it is impossible to learn anything worth while about performance driving. You never know the skill level of a new student and you really are putting your life in their hands as an instructor so planning for the worst case scenario is all you can do.
As long as you follow the rules, SDR puts on a great program and is a good organization to run with. If you don't like the rules, SDR is not the place to go as they have plenty of people that don't have a problem with turning you away in a less than diplomatic manner. They don't hold a grudge though and are some very nice and knowledgeable people if you stick around.
I am 100% all for adding safety to our cars and there are many ways to do so that should be encouraged. This encouragement should be done with common sense with a goal rather than a line to be met. The goal is safe drivers, safe instructors and safe events. The result is a steady stream of drivers the are better trained for all driving on or off track.
The primary safety device in all student cars stock or modified is the Instructor. Any car from a pre A 356 to the 2011 TT can reach deadly speeds in stock form.
01-17-2011, 12:15 PM
#34
Race Director
Look safey gear in DE is always a challenge in balance.
From safety perspective DE participants should with cages and full race level safety gear. How practically speaking that will never happen. Who wants to put a cage in a car to a few laps at the track. Nobody.
We here all talk and advise new drivers to run the car stock at your first few DE's learn and improve. If you get serious and start wanting to go 20-30 times year we mostly say "get a dedicated track car" or say "it is a good time to think about safety gear". Same intent is in the PCA rules. Stock off the lot. Fine bring it to a DE as is and enjoy. Howver if you chose to spend the $$ on go fast parts make sure you funnel some in to saving you A$$ parts too. We here all "recommend" that. Those rules have be designed to "require" that.
Look the intent make some sense. Yes it will restrict some guys out of PCA DE. That is choice the PCA member need to decide on. Some clearly will not like it and see out other groups. Fine so be it.
Now there are holes in the system to besure as there would be in any system. No 356 or 924 will be as fast a a stock GT3 so if the requirements were based on lap time potential then we would see 924's in race trim with no safty gear or never any GT3's at the track.
Again balance is they key. Getting back the basic concept of "if you have the desire, time or money to mod the car to make it fast you also should make it safer". I think that is sound Of course one may not agree on exact point cut-off the specifics of Zone 8 rules set as published. Should a CAI alone require a harness. Hmm that alone could be excessive. What about coilovers? Hmm maybe may not. The challenge is finding the balance between what makes sense to have viable DE program and what makes sense to drive safety.
BTW... my personally take is irrelevant since those rules will never really apply in my case. My 944 spec is race prepped and so a non-issue. My 88 Turbo S street car is stock down to chip and is fine with 3pt belts. Should I chose to modify and track that car I would put in a harness and seats and removeable bar out of own personal desire. Not due to any rule.
BTW... Zone 8 has been this way with rule going on 10+ years. More mod points = more safety gear. I started reading that in the rules in at least 1999. Some of the particulars may have changed, but the sense ways always pretty much the same. Of course I know one little change and push one car over the limit and cause an up-roar.
01-17-2011, 12:37 PM
#35
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Entire discussion has started from a simple fact that OP was declined participation in the DE event as a 'tech inspector' have found some 'suspension modifications' - read aftermarket damptronics coilovers plus a chipped ECU with aftermarket exhaust and all that resulted in the demand to have 6 point harness WHICH IS a demand to throw out stock seats and install recaro buckets and install a rollbar.
It is always nice to have internet discussions carrying away with theories of 'safety' but come on, a damptronics COs are now a 'safety violation'? To me whole thing sounds like one giant BS and an obvious attempt of those affiliated tech shops in zone 8 who also serve as 'tech inspectors' to boost their own sales based on the official position they hold.
01-17-2011, 12:40 PM
#36
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Joe, I guess my point was that their policy has a rather large flaw in it, safety-wise. I prefer the way our club (not to be zenophobic) and others increase the required safety equipment as you move up the run groups. By definition, you will be driving faster, and closer to the limit and if you have hung around long enough to move out of the (entry level) novice class, you should be spending money on safety equipment, regardess of how stock or modified your ride is.
01-17-2011, 12:46 PM
#37
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They're free to do as they wish, and I think it will be proven to be a mistake at enrollment. People who do HPDE are car enthusiasts. They buy big brakes, big tires, exhausts and intakes for their street cars. They're potentially future club racers. If you make it immensely difficult to do a DE, you'll lose them to NASA or other groups.
The concern over 500+ HP cars in neophyte hands is real. IMHO the solution is to limit run lower group top speeds (on long straights where monitoring speed is safe) until you get an instructor sign-off.
The concern over 500+ HP cars in neophyte hands is real. IMHO the solution is to limit run lower group top speeds (on long straights where monitoring speed is safe) until you get an instructor sign-off.
01-17-2011, 01:30 PM
#38
Race Director
Excuse me but you are saying something very odd here. how the heck one is supposed to put in 6 point harness without replacing seat and rollbar? or do you suggest mounting rear harness straps to a seat mount? it is not allowed nowhere. ...
all that resulted in the demand to have 6 point harness WHICH IS a demand to throw out stock seats and install recaro buckets and install a rollbar.
all that resulted in the demand to have 6 point harness WHICH IS a demand to throw out stock seats and install recaro buckets and install a rollbar.
I will talk about what the rules do say.
If the car is "prepared" as defined in the rules which I believe it is then it need only a harness to be legal for DE. I read the rules and as best I can see they do not require a racing seat nor roll bar at this level. I am not going to go into the wisdom of that, but that appears the way the rules are.
So this begs the question. How can one comply with the rules most easily and in safe way?
Harness and seat. The rules do not require racing seats. So you can for example modify the stock seat to have passages for harness. I know most won't do it, but you can comply and still keep the stock seats. So it becomes you CHOICE to install race seats. Not a requirement. Now it does seem smart to just install race seats as it is the best way get the harness to sit properly. Again you have a choice. You need not replace the seat all the time. You can simply swap the seats from stock to race seats for track days. Then put the stock ones back in for the road. I have stock 88 Turbo S and it has stock sport seats. These a great seats, but I cannot use a harness with them. It just won't work. So should want to track the car with a harness I will need swap out the stock seats of racing buckets. I figure I can swap both in 1 hour. Very reasonable option for keeping the car street able most days. It takes long to swap track pads than that.
harness and roll bar While a roll bar is great way to mount the shoulder straps it is not required. Brey Krause makes several bolt in products that are strong enough to use to secure the shoulder belts. They are much stronger than simple harness bars of old. They can be installe in minutes and are strong. If you believe you need roll over protection with seat and harness take a look at many of the bolt in roll bars out there. There are product by DAS sport that might not meed the particulars of roll bar for competition, but provide roll over protection and are no drill installs. For my 944 turbo RedlineMan makes great bolt in roll bar. It not as good a proper roll bar, but takes maybe 20 mintues to install with the seats out which will be out when I swaping them for race seats anyway.
So point is I can with 944 Turbo transform from street car to track car and back meeting the requirement of prepared and back to stock looking street within 3 hours using off the shelf parts with zero trace. Given that other than spending maybe $1500 for these parts what is the rub? I can see it hassle for a first timer, but if you had the $$$ for all these tuner parts why not set aside some for safety stuff. It does not seem entirely unreasonable.
If you feel that the ONLY way you can comply is to permenanly mount a harness, 2 racing seats and weld in roll bar fine. That is your choice, but to my understaind not required by the rules.
01-17-2011, 01:38 PM
#39
Race Director
Joe, I guess my point was that their policy has a rather large flaw in it, safety-wise. I prefer the way our club (not to be zenophobic) and others increase the required safety equipment as you move up the run groups. By definition, you will be driving faster, and closer to the limit and if you have hung around long enough to move out of the (entry level) novice class, you should be spending money on safety equipment, regardess of how stock or modified your ride is.
Increasing safety mods by the run group is not a bad thing either. It has it pit falls well as you can simply stayin the lower group and just "drive faster". What do you do then if you think some guy is "too fast" for the lower group yet does not wanto move up to the next group with greater safety requriements. I guess you can boot him form the events.
Look any system has its flaws and I don't really know what is best one. I don't know what is the right balance to achieve and how to get there. I do see what Zone 8 is shooting for and believe the idea is reasonable. I am not however in a position to made decisions about safety requriements in DE for any organizaion. I can only chose what safety gear I want to run in my car and what organiations I want to run in. I have no problem giving advice on what to run and when, but everyone is free to do their own thing and prepare to live with it both from organization rules persecptive and post track incident perspective.
01-17-2011, 01:54 PM
#40
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Thread Starter
So this begs the question. How can one comply with the rules most easily and in safe way?
Harness and seat. The rules do not require racing seats. So you can for example modify the stock seat to have passages for harness. I know most won't do it, but you can comply and still keep the stock seats. So it becomes you CHOICE to install race seats. Not a requirement. Now it does seem smart to just install race seats as it is the best way get the harness to sit properly. Again you have a choice. You need not replace the seat all the time. You can simply swap the seats from stock to race seats for track days. Then put the stock ones back in for the road. I have stock 88 Turbo S and it has stock sport seats. These a great seats, but I cannot use a harness with them. It just won't work. So should want to track the car with a harness I will need swap out the stock seats of racing buckets. I figure I can swap both in 1 hour. Very reasonable option for keeping the car street able most days. It takes long to swap track pads than that.
harness and roll bar While a roll bar is great way to mount the shoulder straps it is not required. Brey Krause makes several bolt in products that are strong enough to use to secure the shoulder belts. They are much stronger than simple harness bars of old. They can be installe in minutes and are strong. If you believe you need roll over protection with seat and harness take a look at many of the bolt in roll bars out there. There are product by DAS sport that might not meed the particulars of roll bar for competition, but provide roll over protection and are no drill installs. For my 944 turbo RedlineMan makes great bolt in roll bar. It not as good a proper roll bar, but takes maybe 20 mintues to install with the seats out which will be out when I swaping them for race seats anyway.
Harness and seat. The rules do not require racing seats. So you can for example modify the stock seat to have passages for harness. I know most won't do it, but you can comply and still keep the stock seats. So it becomes you CHOICE to install race seats. Not a requirement. Now it does seem smart to just install race seats as it is the best way get the harness to sit properly. Again you have a choice. You need not replace the seat all the time. You can simply swap the seats from stock to race seats for track days. Then put the stock ones back in for the road. I have stock 88 Turbo S and it has stock sport seats. These a great seats, but I cannot use a harness with them. It just won't work. So should want to track the car with a harness I will need swap out the stock seats of racing buckets. I figure I can swap both in 1 hour. Very reasonable option for keeping the car street able most days. It takes long to swap track pads than that.
harness and roll bar While a roll bar is great way to mount the shoulder straps it is not required. Brey Krause makes several bolt in products that are strong enough to use to secure the shoulder belts. They are much stronger than simple harness bars of old. They can be installe in minutes and are strong. If you believe you need roll over protection with seat and harness take a look at many of the bolt in roll bars out there. There are product by DAS sport that might not meed the particulars of roll bar for competition, but provide roll over protection and are no drill installs. For my 944 turbo RedlineMan makes great bolt in roll bar. It not as good a proper roll bar, but takes maybe 20 mintues to install with the seats out which will be out when I swaping them for race seats anyway.
I would fire a safety advisor who even mentions a 'death bar' as a safety option. I went over that in my first running season myself. There are very little options of what one can do in a 997 car if owner wants to keep car streetable. Only optional seats for 5 point harnesses that do recline are GT2 seats and they cost a little fortune. GT3 seats are non-reclinable buckets. Install in and out a rollbar is also close to impossible on a regular basis and will end up with damaged interior.
Any other options for seats are aftermarket and usually folks do not destroy their street cars like this. Those who do (like me) do have rollbars already. and speaking of my car - I took it out for winter and I can say - recaro sporter cs gives great comfort and secures perfectly with standard 3 point belt with cg-lock on it. and I know it is not going to suffocate me if anything happens.
And I cannot seriously discuss any ideas of swapping seats in and out in a street car 'for track days', you cannot be serious typing this. Percentage of people who spend all their time in garages attending their vehicles is close to negligent.
Plus, I beleive stock 3 point belt with stock seats with stock side airbags and all other stock airbags is way safer option than an aftermarket detachable sport bagless steering wheel, old bagless recaros and a 5 point harness on a death bar.
To add to all this, I think what happens here is a shift of perception in minds of folks who spend too much time on a track. People who come to DE for a first time but were modding their street cars for a while are not even mentally ready to absorb an idea to 'change' anything inside of their $100K cars. It takes time to start treating a 997 car as an appliance.
Last edited by utkinpol; 01-17-2011 at 02:09 PM.
01-17-2011, 02:04 PM
#41
Race Director
Look the rules are not force you permenanlty mod the car. There are options. Just because you make not like them does not make it the fault of the rules. If you really don't like them don't run PCA in San Diego. See other options that make you feel confortable. If the DE prorgam in San Diego PCA dies on the vine due to this then...well that is their choice too.
Life is all about choices. I am giving you different options and yet you see fixed on some... back years ago I could chosen to race my 944 in PCA. However classing was horrible at the time. So instead I went with NASA where my car could be classed such that it was competitive on budget I could afford. Choices... In time PCA chose adopted that same NASA class rather than change their existing classing. Choices...
01-17-2011, 02:28 PM
#42
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
if I do not run with PCA in San Diego that does not mean that I cannot have an opinion of what PCA of San Diego does, what is a name of it and where it belongs. None of that is a one way street. Any club`s policies are those ones which most members agree upon. If other zones will start enforcing its members to shell out 12 grand to get GT2 seats installed into their cars for no obvious reason I would expect some disagreement to surface up as well.
01-17-2011, 02:34 PM
#43
The OP's scenario is very common in my experience. Car nuts tend to modify their cars. They then decide to upgrade the driver. Expecting a first time de participant to un-mod their car or put in a roll bar before they decide if DE is for them is unrealistic. San Diego region is going to keep some people out of their DE program with their policy, but I suspect that is their goal. It's their sandbox, they are certainly within their rights to decide who can play in it.
01-17-2011, 02:54 PM
#44
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The OP's scenario is very common in my experience. Car nuts tend to modify their cars. They then decide to upgrade the driver. Expecting a first time de participant to un-mod their car or put in a roll bar before they decide if DE is for them is unrealistic. San Diego region is going to keep some people out of their DE program with their policy, but I suspect that is their goal. It's their sandbox, they are certainly within their rights to decide who can play in it.
01-17-2011, 02:55 PM
#45
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They're free to do as they wish, and I think it will be proven to be a mistake at enrollment. People who do HPDE are car enthusiasts. They buy big brakes, big tires, exhausts and intakes for their street cars. They're potentially future club racers. If you make it immensely difficult to do a DE, you'll lose them to NASA or other groups.
The concern over 500+ HP cars in neophyte hands is real. IMHO the solution is to limit run lower group top speeds (on long straights where monitoring speed is safe) until you get an instructor sign-off.
The concern over 500+ HP cars in neophyte hands is real. IMHO the solution is to limit run lower group top speeds (on long straights where monitoring speed is safe) until you get an instructor sign-off.
I think the quote above is at the meat of the safety/performance issue. High Performance Driver Ed should be considered as distinct from standard Driver Ed. Adopting many of PCA Club Racing rules would standardize safety issue across the country. IMHO it's about grouping similar cars with similar drivers.