My993C2

I stopped trying to predict the winners numerous races ago since I haven't been right in a while. But this I do know. Massa does not have a hope in hell of winning this race as long as he and Alonso are on the same lap. Expect another "point-by" if Alonso finds himself behind Massa.

BTW ... I am a Red Bull fan, but I don't think their car has what it takes to win at Monza (look for them to finish the season strong after this race). So since I doubt very much Vettel or Webber will be winning this race, I am temporarily jumping on Button's bandwagon if Red Bull can't do well and hoping Jenson beats Hamilton and the two Ferrari cars.

PPo

Running the F-duct isn't a straightforward decision because you need to run a certain amount of downforce for the F-duct to be effective. The amount of downforce required for the F-duct to be efficient may not be neccesary at Monza.

If you run enough downforce on the rear wing to make the blown rear wing efficient enough for the f-duct to work, you also need to balance that rear downforce with the downforce at the front. Since an F-duct does nothing for the front wing, you will always compromise drag at the front when you run the F-duct.

Consider that at Monza you are at full throtttle for 70% of the lap. So, the added downforce/drag that the front wing will provide will mean you will most likely have a lower top speed. However, with the downforce, your average speed may be higher!! Also, your race pace may be better overall because your tires will not wear as much.

Look for Button to have a great start... once he gets the car to 50mph, he will be able to lay the power down better then anybody else around him. Combine that with a reduced tire wear during the race, he has a good chance to win the race.

His compromise is that he will be easy to pass at the end of the straights, and he will have a hard time passing at the end of the straights. His top end is reduced because of the front end drag.

I am interested to see the comparison between F-duct and non-F-duct this race.

wanna911

I think it will be interesting too. But I think the low DF package will be better for the race even if it wasn't during qualy simply because I don't think there are enough turns for the high DF package to get a significant enough gap not to get caught on those long straights. It really seems the lap times would have been about even, and with that goes the advantage to less downforce for passing.

The biggest challenge with that will be keeping it on track. But with everyone conserving tires the whole race, I don't think that will be a problem.

A.Wayne

If up to MS .. yes..............


Hopefully logic will prevail at Mercedes and they will move on, his performances this year was predictable and academic.



A little more to it , about Button's decision .....

Mclaren brought new Aero to Monza this weekend , both front and rear wings with out F-duct, in an attempt to reduce drag. Both drivers tested them, Button opted for the higher downforce setup with F-duct ( there Turkey setup) Hamilton opted for the new stuff with the higher straight away speed ...

Button's choice was academic if you understand Button, he never choose that setup because it was faster, button cannot drive a nervous car , unlike Hamilton, he will always opt out ..

Qualifying 2nd was a bonus, being passed on the straights by Massa et al will be priceless.... he was only faster than the HRT cars.


Ferrari's pace is real this weekend, hopefully the Likkle one can keep it on the black stuff ..


..

PPo

One more thing I didn't think about is the braking zone... Button can brake later with downforce! But who waits until the braking zone to pass?

Larry Herman

True, but he knows his limitations, and Button running the higher downforce setup will be faster than him running the low downforce car. It will be interesting to see how he runs vs Hamilton. Just a few minutes away.

My993C2

Interesting race with decent action.

- They need to do something about the pole sitter swerving into the 2nd place person at the start. Vettel and Webber have tried it in previous races and Alonso emulated them in this race. The funny thing is that it seems to hurt the pole sitter's speed more than anything and well let's just say it is not safe.

- Hamilton is proving just like Vettel has in numerous races, that he can be his own worst enemy. It was interesting watching the pre-race coverage on Speed TV when they focused on Vettel's lack of maturity and even interviewed Hamilton who said Vettel is a good driver but he basically needs to smarten up, and then on the first lap Hamilton puts his front tire in front of Massa's rear wheel and bingo, your race is over Lewis. Massa was ahead of you going into that 2nd chicane, you should know better Lewis.

- Good effort by Jenson Button and great racing between himself and Alonso. But at the end of the day the Ferrari car was made for Monza and the Ferrari pit crew was just a bit faster than McLaren. But both guys raced hard all day long. And yes Filipe also raced hard.

- The Red Bull car was just not made for Monza and could not compete with Ferrari and McLaren. Of course it wasn't just Red Bull. None of the other teams could compete with Ferrari and McLaren today.

- Webber had a poor start and probably would have finished ahead of Vettel had he not had his battles with Hulkenberg. But it is what it is. You deal with the cards you are dealt and Mark is lucky Lewis had his first lap brain fart and leaped frogged him as the leader in the championship standings.

- Vettel had a good race considering his car could not compete with the Ferrari and the McLaren as well as his having his mid race engine problems. I know there will be conspiracy theories concern these alleged problems, but you don't usually lose 4 seconds in a lap when you are following team orders. So I am willing to give Red Bull the benefit of the doubt that they did indeed have engine problems.

- Good race for the rookie Hulkenberg, but dude you got to keep it on the track in the chicanes. He got lucky in this race for his numerous off track excursions.

- Also a good race for Rosberg even though he hardly got any TV coverage. But we are seeing age and talent are a huge factor as all season long Rosberg has out performed his infamous teammate.

- Dang those Bridgestone option tires are the bomb (and they are going away from Bridgestone next season? shame). Who would have thought Vettel could go 52 of 53 laps on soft tires. I wonder if Button would have had some hindsight in knowing how long these tires would have lasted, would he too have gone to the last lap before pitting? Alonso may not have won this race if Button had gone to the last lap like Vettel did.

- Finally, Monza is a great track. Even though I am a Red Bull fan and they did not win. I was still thoroughly entertained by this race. Next up is Singapore and I predict (I have been known to be wrong ... LOL) that Red Bull will be back on pole and threatening to win it all (if they can solve their lousy race starts).

RajDatta

Excellent race for Ferrari and Alonso. Alonso never let Button build up enough of a gap to pull a race stop and keep his advantage.
The critics have been silenced for 2 weeks. It will be awefully quiet around here.

Flying Finn

Monza produces a good race again (sounds familiar, classic track, good race... Hello Tilke...)

Good drive from Alonso and top notch pit work from F beating McLaren who usually are the best in pits.
Also both Nicos drove a great race, and Vettel & his tactic was very good. Button too with being conservative but 2nd position is a good result with valuable points.
On the other side of the coin is Hamilton, very costly mistake from him. And Schumi... come on, it's time for him to face the reality and move over, there are talented guys who can fill that seat.

Good to see championship battle getting again tighter!

333pg333

It was better for Webber that Alonso won and not Button. Apparently Alonso is down to his last engine and will have to dip into the penalty zone at some stage in the future. Button did very well considering his setup. To hold off the Ferraris for so long shows he really can drive just a tad.

dan212

Don't understand why Hulkenberg didn't get a penalty for cutting the chicane ahead of webber and maintaining his position.. Too bad - because aside from that, it was the best run by hulkenberg thus far.

RajDatta

Not necessarily on the penalty. You can go back to one of the previously used engines. I am sure they know the health of all their engines and all future races will not be as hard on the engines.
It does make for one more interesting tidbit to keep an eye on though.

Flying Finn

+1 and they are actually allowed to somewhat "freshen" the used engines (reliability upgrades anyone?) so they won't be taking any penalties at least not yet.

Nizer

It was a classic track before they butchered it with chicanes.

Agree with the Tilke comment.

A.Wayne

Ahhhh Miss Sunshine .... you go girl !!! ....

Agree , the engine issue could unravel Ferrari's and Alonso's challenge, it is very critical for sure, everyone will now have to race for the next 5 races,

Preshaaa !!!!!!.

It was very apparent Button was holding up Alonso, who could have ran a much faster pace if he had gotten by.. The wash from Button's heavy aero made it impossible for him to get close enuff to make a pass and there were mor ethan a few "tight " moments. Button's gamble paid off somewhat and that added pressure of him being in front of Hamilton may have led to Hamilton's silly push, trying to win the race on the first lap with such a big championship lead ...

Button is doing a better job at accessing his modest talents, much better than his talented rivals, who keep finding ways of tripping themselves up, weekend after weekend ... good weekend for Faux 1 ..


RB apparently changed strategies midrace and needed to get Webbo pass Vettel, LOL how pathetic Maybe Brawn and Schumacher could write a book and help out the rest ..

Speaking off ! ..

Schumacher looking good there Amigos, i think he is ready for Indy cars and Satokhan... imagine if Mercedes had gotten behind Rosberg instead of Faux7 from race 1 .... Hmmmmmm!!!





Alonso wins for Ferrari at Monza



By Matt Beer Sunday, September 12th 2010, 13:21 GMT

Fernando Alonso revitalised his title challenge by claiming a highly popular victory for Ferrari in its home race at Monza, ahead of McLaren's Jenson Button and Felipe Massa in the second Ferrari.

The result was even better for Alonso as erstwhile championship leader Lewis Hamilton damaged his McLaren on the first lap and retired, and while Red Bull's Mark Webber inched into the points lead, he could only finish sixth. His team-mate and fellow title contender Sebastian Vettel was fourth.

Button had made the better start, shrugging off both Alonso's attempts to squeeze him off the line, and then a tap from the Ferrari at the Rettifilio - which did minor damage to both cars - to hold the lead.

As Alonso jinked around behind the McLaren, both Massa and Hamilton tried to take advantage. Hamilton took a speculative look down the inside of Massa into the Roggia chicane, but was only partially alongside the Ferrari, and as Massa turned in on the racing line, contact was made that broke Hamilton's steering, sending him ploughing into the Lesmo gravel and out.

The only consolation for Hamilton was that his main championship rival Webber had been shoved back to ninth on the first lap, two places behind Red Bull team-mate Vettel, as fast-starters Nico Rosberg (Mercedes), Robert Kubica (Renault) and Nico Hulkenberg (Williams) filled the top six.

The top three easily pulled away from Rosberg, with Alonso clinging to Button's tail and taking the odd look at passing. Both took turns setting fastest laps as they tried to make a break, with the gap never getting larger than 1.5 seconds, and generally much smaller, while Massa lurking just a few seconds behind.

The stalemate lasted nearly two thirds of the race, as Monza's kindness to tyres meant pitstops did not start in earnest until the closing stages.

Button was first to change tyres, coming in at the end of lap 35. Alonso stayed out just one lap longer, but it was enough to overcome Button's advantage, rejoining right alongside the McLaren, clinging to the inside through the Rettifilio to hold the lead, and then immediately setting a new fastest lap to escape from Button.

As Alonso disappeared to take this third win of the year - and the first that was not aided by either attrition ahead or controversial team tactics - Button easily held off Massa for second.

Vettel finally emerged a surprise fourth. In the early stages it looked like he was set to retire, as he reported engine problems over the radio and lapped 2s off the pace for a while, allowing Webber past as he did so. But some system tweaks appeared to solve the problem, and by virtue of staying out until the penultimate lap before finally pitting, Vettel beat Rosberg to fourth.

Webber had to fight hard to take sixth, scrapping past Hulkenberg with three laps to go, having been enraged by the Williams cutting chicanes and defending firmly to stay ahead. Kubica lost out to the Williams in the pits, then to Webber as Hulkenberg came out right in front of him and cost him momentum, pushing him back to eighth.

Michael Schumacher (Mercedes) and Rubens Barrichello (Williams) completed the top 10. Last year's winner Barrichello had lost ground on the first lap and only gained the final point when Renault's Vitaly Petrov - on a similar strategy to Vettel - finally pitted on lap 51.

Tonio Liuzzi recovered from his disastrous qualifying to chase Sebastien Buemi (Toro Rosso) and Barrichello home in 12th. But Liuzzi's Force India Adrian Sutil could only finish 16th following a first lap incident.

Virgin's Timo Glock narrowly beat Heikki Kovalainen to new team honours in 17th, as the latter's Lotus team-mate Jarno Trulli retired in a cloud of smoke late on, having led the 'class' most of the way.

PROVISIONAL RACE RESULTS

The Italian Grand Prix
Autodromo di Monza, Italy;
53 laps; 306.720km;
Weather: Sunny.

Classified:

Pos Driver Team Time
1. Alonso Ferrari 1h16:24.572
2. Button McLaren-Mercedes + 2.938
3. Massa Ferrari + 4.223
4. Vettel Red Bull-Renault + 28.193
5. Rosberg Mercedes + 29.942
6. Webber Red Bull-Renault + 31.276
7. Hulkenberg Williams-Cosworth + 32.812
8. Kubica Renault + 34.028
9. Schumacher Mercedes + 44.948
10. Barrichello Williams-Cosworth + 1:04.213
11. Buemi Toro Rosso-Ferrari + 1:05.056
12. Liuzzi Force India-Mercedes + 1:06.106
13. Petrov Renault + 1:18.919
14. De la Rosa Sauber-Ferrari + 1 lap
15. Alguersuari Toro Rosso-Ferrari + 1 lap
16. Sutil Force India-Mercedes + 1 lap
17. Glock Virgin-Cosworth + 2 laps
18. Kovalainen Lotus-Cosworth + 2 laps
19. Di Grassi Virgin-Cosworth + 2 laps
20. Yamamoto HRT-Cosworth + 2 laps

Fastest lap: Alonso, 1:24.139

Not classified/retirements:

Driver Team On lap
Trulli Lotus-Cosworth 47
Senna HRT-Cosworth 12
Hamilton McLaren-Mercedes 1
Kobayashi Sauber-Ferrari 1


World Championship standings, round 14:

Drivers: Constructors:
1. Webber .. 187 .. 1. Red Bull-Renault ... 350
2. Hamilton .. 182 .. 2. McLaren-Mercedes .. 347
3. Alonso .. 166 .. 3. Ferrari .. 290
4. Button .. 165 .. 4. Mercedes .. 158
5. Vettel .. 163 .. 5. Renault ... 127
6. Massa 124 6. Force India-Mercedes 58
7. Rosberg 112 7. Williams-Cosworth 47
8. Kubica 108 8. Sauber-Ferrari 27
9. Schumacher 46 9. Toro Rosso-Ferrari 10
10. Sutil 45
11. Barrichello 31
12. Kobayashi 21
13. Petrov 19
14. Hulkenberg 16
15. Liuzzi 13
16. Buemi 7
17. De la Rosa 6
18. Alguersuari 3

All timing unofficial

Fastest Laps :

1. F Alonso Ferrari 1:24.139
2. M Webber Red Bull 1:24.278
3. N Rosberg Mercedes GP 1:24.491
4. S Vettel Red Bull 1:24.493
5. R Kubica Renault 1:24.560
6. F Massa Ferrari 1:24.575
7. N Hulkenberg Williams 1:24.576
8. J Button McLaren 1:24.598
9. V Petrov Renault 1:24.644
10. A Sutil Force India 1:24.937
11. M Schumacher Mercedes GP 1:24.947
12. T Liuzzi Force India 1:25.102
13. S Buemi Toro Rosso 1:25.224
14. R Barrichello Williams 1:25.239
15. J Alguersuari Toro Rosso 1:25.472
16. P de la Rosa Sauber 1:26.325
17. T Glock Virgin 1:27.765
18. H Kovalainen Lotus 1:27.822
19. L di Grassi Virgin 1:28.171
20. S Yamamoto Hispania 1:28.875
21. J Trulli Lotus 1:29.017
22. B Senna Hispania 1:30.880




Again , how stupid can RB be and not "NOW" get behind Webbo ....



Dah One !!!