jrgordonsenior

Semantics.... Who give a bleep about words. You really need to ride with a proficient TB'er and then you'll understand. My pro friend won't even use words like trail braking or late apexing as they're too easily misconstrued and misused. I thought Cooper did an excellant job especially describing carrrying speed into the corner....

Bob please feel free to edit ....

FredC

Larry, you and I disagree about Danica's skill level... i can assure you she is a good trail braker ;-)

I remember an ex 1980s Indycar driver telling me 5 years ago that trail braking is just like driving on the street, except you go deeper and get on the throttle faster/harder... while remembering to try to never be too sudden on inputs. This has worked for me fwiw.

Sorry if this is repeating what someone else already contributed.

FredC

+1.

cello

I have and I thought I did just recently

You are right re "words" - but its also all we have here, no?

I hear you and I'm out - great thread!

Land Jet

I must say that one of the reasons I'm uncertain about trail braking is because I feel that I have finally become fairly proficient at straight line braking my fast and heavy car, and then find out I have to unlearn what I have been practicing because it wasn't really the best way to accomplish the task. I would have much preferred to have been taught the correct way from the beginning without the taboo factor. Now I'm approaching TB with some trepidation. Guess I need to change my attitude and just see it as a new challenge and the next layer of the driving onion to peel.

When I started track driving I had no idea how much I didn't know.

Gary R.

Again i'm no expert but if you have track braking down, meaning you brake about the opposite way you learned for the street, then beginning trail braking is nothing more than braking/coming off the brake slowly while turning in. I think the Walter Rohl "tie a string to your toe and the steering wheel" example was the simplest and most straightforward methodology. Don't over-think it..

sbelles

I don't know if that's true. I had instructors who worked with me on trail braking and I'll teach a student if they are ready. I had one student who asked me about it and didn't realize he was already doing it. He had worked on getting on and off the brakes later and later and just got there without knowing it. To prove the point I had him brake a little earlier and get off the brakes before turn in and we nearly went off. He'd forgoten what understeer is like on that corner.

trumperZ06

Great explaination Cooper !!!

We teach the more advanced drivers trail braking in Chin, BMW SE, PBOC, and I'll do it with other clubs...

after the driver is good with "heel & toe down shifting" and can place the car on the proper line in the corners.

It's a great tool to have (as is lift throttle oversteer), but not for the novice who's still trying to find his way around the track.

You can become a "lateral G junkie" with trail braking... it's fun to use, but choose the proper corners.

Earlierapex

I probably over-stated the point for emphasis. If there is a trailbraking scale from 1) adjust your line a little by brushing the brakes when you are going to understeer wide of the apex to 10) use the first half of the turn as the last part of your braking zone, then we have to pick some point on the scale where you go from "nice DE line adjustment technique" to "additional weapon to help go much faster."

If you need an "official" definition from somewhere online, google turned this up from www.turnfast.com:

Trail braking-- (a.k.a. brake turning, trailing-brake) continuing to use braking to slow the vehicle down after the turn-in for a corner has occured. Conventional theory says all braking should be done before the car begins to turn for a corner. However, recent race driving strategy has recognized a benefit to balancing the use of the available traction, and to use the initial turn-in phase to continue to slow the vehicle down with braking.

I wasn't using a definition as much as just what I've been taught by various pro-race drivers that coach like guy cosmo, pete argetsinger, john paul jr, david russell, etc.

The learning curve with guys like these is as steep as first learning heel/toe and apex.

Bottom line, in my mind and based on what I've been taught, trailbraking is using the first half of the turn to move the initial braking point down the straight.

Earlierapex

You are on the right path and aren't doing anything backwards at all. Before you learn the more dangerous trick of a relatively earlier late apex, which is faster, you have to learn a late apex. Before you can trailbrake, you have to threshhold brake well in a straight line and heel/toe.

First you learn "try to make as few inputs as possible," then you have to learn that dancing on the edge of the envelope requires a lot of little, but smooth as possible, throttle and steering corrections.

You have nothing to worry about. The car isn't going to spin off the track if you touch the brakes in a corner, but I understand why PCA teaches this as novice students' biggest mistakes are usually sharp, over-emphatic, car unsettling and dangerous. But they also usually get over that panic reaction in a couple or three DEs and can start learning more advanced stuff.

bobt993

Yes, and you will likely be slower initially than you are now, but stay with it. It gets better. Consider an endurance brake pad with less initial bite to increase your pedal sensitivity range while learning.

It is much like changing a golf swing. My sister is a par golfer ( she beats the men all the time) and has an incredible swing from years of pro coaches. She is often asked to teach other golfers how to improve their swing and does, but more times than not she tells them not change it just make some minors adjustments because it will ruin their game for a long time.

As far new theory's on braking. I have never been told braking in a straight line is more efficient especially with 4 channel ABS systems which make it essential. Unless you have a motorsport ABS system your car will have more corner grip than straight line decell because of the limitations of stock ABS systems.

Learning to brake properly actually has huge benefits in safety. Look at the design of the tracks!!! The safety areas were designed for pro racing and proper braking techniques. That is why you see more carnage after the turns to the inside by novice DE/racers than you do in pro racing.

TT Gasman

At PSDS they teach trail braking from day one. It's a fast way around the track in a 911 for sure, but you have to have your heel-toe downshifting down cold. PCA preaches the slow in/fast out brake in a straight line for safety, it's an old timey way to get a 911 around the track in one piece. Nothing wrong with it, but I'm not sure it still applies to the modern 911s. My advice to the OP is attend a PSDS and learn TB from the pros.

Land Jet

I was at the track today and after asking this question, reading the answers, thinking about trail braking and it's implications, I zoned in on my braking. Much to my surprise and delight I found I have been trail braking without paying attention to it in many corners. Thankfully my AWD system is extremely forgiving when I'm not as sensitive as I should be to side loading the car, so working on this technique is not as daunting as I was imagining. Now that I've become aware of this newfound ability I can work to refine it's use. Thanks a lot guys for your help with this.

I will re-read this thread but I guess this begs the question-- what is trail braking 201?

Larry Herman

For that, you gotta pay!

Land Jet