utkinpol

Do you think we will see anything like a GT3 car with PDK in it any time soon?

M758

GT3 cups already have sequental boxes. Those are not PDK as I recall. Ferrari road cars have what they call an F1 paddle shifter. Works very well. Intersting to hear a pack of F360 or F430 challenge cars head into braking zone all exceute perfect blips over 2-3 gears. Especially when the are "gentleman drivers" rather than pros.

mdrums

Hi Larry, I totally respect your posts on these forums and have learned a lot from reading them but in this case either I am misunderstanding you or you are incorrect with your statement on PDK down shifts.

PDK in Sport Chono Plus setting has very fast and smooth down shifts. Either in manual or auto mode. PDK does very quick rev matches....perfectly too...and in manual mode as soon as I pull the downshift paddle PDK down shifts, no delay, and it does it much faster than a manual 6 speed transmission.

I am not saying PDK is better than manual or visa versa and not trying to turn this great thread into a PDK/Manual debate. I just want to point out the facts on how fast and accurate PDK down shifts in either auto or manual mode in the sport chrono plus setting.

Larry Herman

I did not mean to imply that the downshifts were imprecise or slow. They are just not as fast as the upshifts because it actually has to change the gears at that moment when you want it to downshift.

I was at the introduction of them last year and have driven a few, and they are pretty neat transmissions. Just can't get used to not having a clutch there, at least in a 997/987. Maybe they should put it in the Cayenne.

mdrums

Well I do not find the down shift any slower. PDK reacts instantly when I pull the paddle, it rev match very fast and shifting is done quicker up and down than a manual.

I can totally understand why a guy that tracks their car as a hobby like most all of us on Rennlist, would want a manual transmission. As you you (see my avitar) I have no choice. A pro race car driver would want PDK or something sequetial like the Ferrari F1 or the transmissions used in the GT3 Cup and RSR cars.

jrgordonsenior

Bob you're hired ....

bobt993

When do I start and what am I doing?

jrgordonsenior

Immediately, clarifying my questionable writing skills.. You do a much better job of explaining what's difficult to explain in writing. Now if I could just get him in my right seat....

Earlierapex

A couple of comments:
1) for some reason, PCA DE instructors are scared to death of teaching TB. It's just this sort of cult thing within PCA. Not sure why. It isn't that dangerous, just use your head and build up to it moderately. You have to be a real expert at heel/toe first; this is true.

2) TB used to "settle" the car or adjust the line isn't trailbraking. That's just eliminating some understeer.

3) Real TB is advantageous because you move the braking zone (and therefore the straight, and therefore the throttle application duration). The reason you can move the braking zone closer to the apex is because the lateral friction circle increases steadily from turn-in to apex (where it should be maxed) and then decreases from apex to trackout (which is why you can steadily add more and more throttle after apex). Think of TB as the exact opposite of throttle application after the apex - start with a LOT of braking and slowly decrease braking as you add steering until the apex.

4) The only problem with learning TB is that you have to have the skill to get the car relatively close to the edge of the friction circle laterally before you can really feel the tires transition from braking to turning in a smooth arc. As you practice at slower speeds, all you are going to feel is that you are going to eliminate understeer because you have moved more weight to the front of the car, but that isn't a bad thing to learn either.

At VIR, T11 is a great spot to feel TB. It's got a ton of camber, and the whole turn is more of a braking zone, to setup for oak tree, than a turn. If you are on the throttle between 11 and 12 at all, you've braked too early for 11. But you'll find there are tons of TB turns at VIR, I think I use it in 1, 3, 4, 10, 11, 12, 14 and especially deep into 17 down the hill. It's a fun trick.

mdrums

Derick, in my PCA club (Suncoast) I instruct with we are told NOT to teach trail breaking until a student is farther up the ladder with other skills and seat time. We do explain and try to teach trail braking just about the time a student is ready to go solo. I also instruct with Chin and PBOC and in Chin the instructors (some are PCA like me) teacha nd talk about trail braking with students usually sooner.

When I did the PSDS courses they taught or at least explaied trail braking in the 1st school.

bobt993

Yep, and once they are that far up the ladder they won't listen to you anyways. I know club racer's/DE'r that have been doing this for over 20years and never reach the next level because they won't ask for or take advice. It's always the car setup is wrong or they found an alternative technique...... (fill in the blank).

StoogeMoe

A Mario Andretti quote comes to my mind while reading this thread.

"It sill amazes me that drivers, even at the professional level, think that brakes are used to slow the car down."

Earlierapex

I didn't mean for my comments to be a condemnation of PCA (which does a great job of getting drivers from a 1 to a 6 on a scale of 10), but the rather strict and pendantic DE methods sort of indirectly result in what you describe above.

I would describe it like this:
1) new student learns to drive from PCA (which often preaches that more advanced driving techniques like TB and a relatively earlier late apex are "bad")
2) student assimilates into the collective and learns all the driving techniques short of the really advanced "dangerous" stuff.
3) student becomes instructor and propagates the fallacy of "TB is bad," and, thereby, never really learns to drive flat-out.

The students you describe that won't take "advanced" advice have sort of been taught not to take that advice by the PCA system. It's sad really, because there's kind of an attitude of "I've learned it all." And with respect to the PCA dogma, he probably has.

I've instructed with Chin and instructed and raced with PBOC too, and the attitude is definitely more open and willing to learn and teach new/interesting things. I've actually had a national PCA instructor coach (instructor instructor) tell me that trail braking was far too advanced for anyone other than a pro-racer and that it just slowed down all amateurs. Um, yeah, like, totally, wow!

PCA is a fantastic elementary school, but it falls flat on the college prep.

Earlierapex

What you are describing is a great tool for adjusting the attitude of the car (or controlling understeer), but it isn't TB. Trailbraking is very hard use of the brakes well after turn in to move the braking zone closer to the apex and, thereby, the initial braking point further down the straight. Of course, sometimes you get both better rotation and true braking. Especially in tight corners like T7 at sebring where you want to use the brakes to get the car to rotate quickly.

When you are trailbraking correctly, you are entering the turn at a high enough rate of speed that you would not be able to make it through the turn without significant braking after turn-in. Don't try this on your first solo weekend...

You can do this because the friction circle doesn't reach max lateral g until the apex.

cello

Well you state this pretty emphatically. Care to provide a source for your definition? Most books I've read, and the Pros at the PSDS, and other Pro coaches I've had or talked to, would not share your defintion..... That said what you describe is also TBing - just a form or technique of same used to rotate the car.