bobt993

Rick you can, but it is a pedal dance. Gas must be applied after brake is engaged. Gas then LFB will introduce PSM. It's a PITA, but will work.

bobt993

Yes, good location and you can visit the kitty litter if you screw up, but no damage. Jim Evans and I were just talking about this turn and T6. The midcorner, apex speeds are almost 60mph when you learn to roll the car in there vs say 48mph of early throttle over-braking entry. Very good to turn to stop staring at the brake markers on the straight, instead look into the corner when you start braking and concentrate on when to come off the brakes instead of worrying about how late you brake. I will have some good data next weekend from the race there (assuming I don't wreck).

Easiest way to learn trail braking is stop looking straight ahead!!!!!! Look into the corner early!!!!!!!!!!!

Larry Herman

One thing not really mentioned here is that trailbraking is not "style" that you endevor to pattern your driving after. It is a tool that you apply to certain corners to get through faster. Larry, you are fortunate in that you have a great track (Summit Point) on which to practice it. Turn 1 is perfect for moderate trailbraking, turning into the corner as you come off the brakes, just enough to get the car to rotate as you pick up the gas. Turn 10 to a lesser extent.

Turn 5 is the ultimate trailbraking corner as you slam the car into the inside of the corner and turn the wheel as you are still hard on the brakes. Take it right around to the apex and pick up the gas just as the back end starts to get loose and explode into turn 6.

Turn 3 (wagon bend) is the antithesis of trailbraking, as you want to get off the brakes and back on the power as you turn up the hill and have it grab your car. Here, if you stay on the brakes too long, the car WILL rotate (you don't want that here) and you will be slow.

So you can see that it is a tool that you use to get through certain corners, not a driving style.

MUSSBERGER

And ABS

spare tire

I look at trail braking as turning in just a little before I am completely off the brakes. Trailbraking is not hard braking, or speed removal. You just get the hard braking done and as you slowly let the nose come up you can turn. But it is a turning tool, not a braking tool.

Land Jet

Great input guys. Our local club is having a 3 day event this weekend starting Friday so I'll try putting into practice what I have been hearing here.

Gary R.

Good luck with it Larry, it has been explained quite well throughout this thread. Turning in toward the apex as you are trailing off the brake following threshold braking at whatever point you choose. Don't let it get overcomplicated, it isn't..

jrgordonsenior

Well it can be, or you can carry your hard braking in towards the apex transitioning to throttle when rotated. As I previously stated, it's an art form and if you've ever sat R-seat with a pro you'll get it....

bobt993

What JR is saying nicely is that's not effective trail braking. The car's attitude should include lean into the turn before your off the brakes rather than have the nose lift first. When a pro demonstrates this your initial response is "oh, now I get it".

SH || NC

+1 Or even a great instructor. I know in White I still ask for right seat ride-alongs for refreshers every now and then to help with a specific skill or section of track.

J richard

There are so may techniques that are used most at the same time it can be a little confusing when you are trying to learn them. Trailbraking is one of those because it is often used for different reasons.

The most basic reason and fundamental skill is to extend/delay the braking zone to use the "wasted" time and grip between straight-line threshold braking and full cornering capacity of the car. Using it for rotating the car or settling the chassis is another technique but first focus on the basics.

Trying to learn trail braking by delaying the braking zone is the recipe for a quick trip to the catbox. When making the transition I would focus on the END of the braking zone and transition into the corner...

First I would make sure the student has good heel/toe (or lfb in an auto) feel and has threshhold braking down.

Then I would focus on the transition between threshold braking and then breathing off the brake as you build max cornering. For starters I would Use your existing END of threshold braking zone and start with being 100% OFF the brake, the END of the trailbraking zone, about halfway between your straight line braking zone before and the apex (for learning purposes only, this point will move around for different corners, cars, and speed...) in that zone you want to focus on breathing off the brake smoothly from full application to zero. Usually the reverse application of throttle starts as soon as you are off the brake.

Once you have the feel of how much brake can be used in the corner and at what point you news all the tire for cornering you can go back and move the point of transition between threshd brake/trailbraking. Typically the brake application point will move back as you discover how much less or later you need to apply the brakes in corner entry.

Then once you have a good feel for mid corner speed you can tighten the whole thing up again by focusing in on the key transition points....

utkinpol

It is truly a great explanation of this topic, best i have heard so far.
When I run with no shifting at second gear i sort of have a feel on how to balance braking pressure in a corner and when to start going harder on gas - but all that happens pretty much with an engaged clutch as at auto-x most corners do not need shifting. track is totally different and it constantly confuses me.

so considering all what was said above - how exactly does one choose when exactly to let clutch go? should it be done even before entering the turn at the end of the straight when you have max pressure on brakes, at the middle of trail braking zone, or at exact moment when foot goes off brake pedal completely? Or something totally else? I looked over this thread from beginning but did not get a feel that this aspect was explained sorry if I overlooked.

Again, sorry if this question is not even relevant here and all aspects of shifting are assumed to be a learned lesson by now. For me it is not. I just assumed a rule of thumb is that no shifting should be done after entering a corner at all, even with trailbraking, is it correct or - well, i obviously not sure how to ask this properly. I just assume that tralbraking by itself does not alter shifting and lower gear should be engaged and clutch released before car goes into turn, is it a correct assumption or not?

cello

Great thread and discussion.

I have always followed closely posts on topics like trail-braking. I am my no means an expert on the subject. But it seems to me that differing levels of drivers define TBing differently. Most of the experienced here define TB as the process of rotating the car by brake. So the use and technique then becomes somewhat turn specific. Witness Bob and JR's posts vs Gary's.

For guys like me (experience level) however, TBing is exactly what Gary describes. At the PSDS, TBing was taught as a 'weight and balance' technique. That is, TBing is the easing off of the brakes from turn in and before picking up throttle. The point was to disengage the brakes as softly as possible thereby causing no upset of the car's natural weight transfer off the nose (from threshold braking). When done correctly, the moment braking pressure ends acceleration progressively begins so that weight is seamlessly transferred from full front to full rear just before apex. The toe-string visual cited by M758 above was the technique taught students: As you add steering from turn in decrease commensurately braking pressure as if ..... , and as you increase throttle commensurately unwind the wheel as if .... . Note that this teaching assumes there is braking pressure after turn in. We were encouraged to TB every turn at Barber - instructors did watch for brake lights from turn in towards apex.

If that is the definition of TBing, it should be used everywhere as there is not a place on the track where a car/driver cannot benefit from a better balanced ride (we all know why it is not so taught at PCA events ....). Car rotation is just an advanced TBing technique, not the technique. And as an advanced technique, it is better suited to be used by advanced drivers and in certain circumstances.

Since there are all different levels of experience reading/learning here, I thought it important we define what we are speaking of when we describe TBing. The above is what I have been taught, and is not Gospel by any means...

Larry Herman

You are correct. If you have to make a downshift, it should be in the rev appropriate place in the braking zone, and it should be completed with the clutch let back out BEFORE your braking is complete.

J richard

Utkinpol,

As I mentioned it is important to have the whole heel/toe down which includes getting allthedownshifting done in a straight-line prior to corner turn in. It's important to understand that trailbraking is only The difference between ending all your braking before turn in and breathing off the brakes just prior to the apex. Downshifting does not change. You typically never want to downshift in a corner due to the potential for it to unsettle the car. If you need to downshift in a corner you didn't get your corner entry done correctly. Two different things.