Gary R.

Good comments, how about the ability of a coach to be able to interpret (several types of) data and know exactly how to use that data to improve your performance? Or even have the ability to manipulate data channel input with the ability to write custom math channels, etc.? Do all these coaches give input on car setup changes? I know Chris Cervelli (as reported) seems to, does everyone?

Larry Herman

That is the next level.

Veloce Raptor

Absolutely critical IMO to be able to "read" a wide variety of data, and more importantly to articulate which data to have the client focus on & why, explaining where & why there is time to be made up based on what it shows.

Writing custom math & software? IMO leave that to the propeller heads.

Input on setup changes: yes.

Larry, I agree that the coach should be able to show they can and or have done competitive times on that track. As to whether it is important to do so THAT day with that client, IMO it is not very critical unless the client demands it.

Patrick and others: many thanks for the kind words.. I hav ebeen blessed with some great folks like you guys to work with!







Professional Racing and Driving Coach

bobt993

It IS important as Larry says. I think once you are at a competitive level that extra .5 to 1secs requires a racer that runs at that pace. This idoes not mean a coach will always correct your style just make you faster. Your peers can ride with you and finds "ticks" or techniques they use that are different and possibly better, but a real fast driver with the ability to coach and setup your car is what you want. When a car is at the limit and your in the passenger seat it requires a real pro to know if it is the car, car setup or driver that is being pushed.

Mark Dreyer

To use a tennis analogy, consider Nick Bollateri. He is at best a 3.5 level player, yet he has coached many of the finest top level pros on the tour for many years.

Larry Herman

Mark, I could not disagree with your analogy more. Racing is not tennis, and you cannot break down the mechanics with stop motion photography and computer generated motion dynamics. Maybe engineers and coaches at the F1 level where they measure everything from suspension motion to rectal temperature can use that data to analyse driving and car performance, but at our level, and even above, the data can tell you where you are slow, but it may not tell you why. It also cannot tell you if you are hampered by an evil handling demon, or are just slow in a fantastically benign car. Only an in-car coach who know what it should be like can tell you that.

sleder

I have enjoyed reading the comments. I believe coaching is about the ability to communicate what the drivers objectives are and the ability to shave their laptimes as well as gain a better understanding how to get the objectives accomplished. My ability to turn a great time depends on the car I am driving and my driving. I don't drive my clients cars, simply because I don't want to write a check for a car if something happens like a tire blows or delaminates. It comes down to the communication of what the objectives are and how to accomplish them. As for data interpertation, today if you can't read the data, you aren't coaching. Data from Traqmate to Motec tells the story and cuts the BS! It is an all inclusive experience that a coach brings to the table. Sittting in the right seat simply telling someone whose driving to get on throttle sooner and use less brake...that is simple instruction and no more. Many great coaches don't get in a car at all. The work is done with race engineers, and drivers whom understand the truth in data, use spotting to supplement their confidence.
Just my 2 cents

Circuit Motorsports

Yes, you can at certain levels. I've seen several very well respected coaches break down and use video in very similar ways to how I've seen video used in a sport like tennis.

A good data engineer who has a good driving background with the right sensors can tell you a LOT and that level of data system is seen on many cars in club racing paddocks, especially the Porsche paddock with the trickled down stuff we see in the Cup Cars and such.

Just because the in-car coach can't run within a second of the lap record doesn't mean he can't do such a thing. Sensing and talking about it is one thing and being able to deal with it at speed is another.

I have seen some phenomenal coaches who were 4 seconds off the pace and I have seen some horrible coaches who were setting lap records. There are a LOT of guys who can feel and see what a car is doing from the right seat, from watching on track, from chasing, from watching video, or interpreting data. The single biggest thing that separates all the coaches that I have dealt with on a personal and professional level is the ability to teach and communicate and how to adapt those skills to individual students. Some people have it and most don't. The ones that regularly stand out are the coaches who work at learning how to teach and are always going out of their way to learn at the same time.

Everyone has a different learning style and not every coach will mesh well with every student. With only one major exception (no not you VR) I've heard or seen personally only very good things about all the people mentioned in this thread. I think one thing that each student should do before hiring the coach is sit down and analyze their own learning style and then bring that up with the coach and see if that the two of you will mesh.

Larry Herman

Absolutely. That is why you have to see what they are doing that prevents them from wanting to getting on the gas sooner, or makes them uncomfortable with using less brakes. Sometime a subtle change in mechanics or line can yield wonders. For me, when you are trying to find someone seconds per lap, the data is not of much use. When you are looking for a tenth or so in each corner, then it is very important.


I guess that I am just old school and have more to learn about data. I'll be the first to admit that data analysis is something that I am just starting to learn more about.

sleder

Larry data is the way to go...working with race engineers teaches set up, and data proves the point. Anytime you want to spend sometime with data...give me a call.
Joe...right on point!

Circuit Motorsports

It's a tough move for someone to make as it takes you out of the comfort zone and away from your strong qualitative skillset. However it can/will be a huge help for some of your students. There are some people who learn so much better when you can quantify something. I'm definitely one who really benefits from seeing it on paper for certain situations.

Larry Herman

Thanks Scott & Joe.

Scott, maybe we should talk about a collaborative effort? I'll call you.

Veloce Raptor

Extremely well said, Joe.









Professional Racing and Driving Coach

ervtx

Unless the car is a single-seater, and some of the coaches mentioned in this thread earned their stripes coaching students in open wheel, single seat cars.

The most impressive session of coaching I have ever received was with Mikel Miller, who ran lead-follow in front of me, providing continuous feedback from the perspective of his mirrors. I'm remember thinking... "How in the heck did he just "drive" two cars simultaneously (1:50 lap times around LS in traffic) w/o crashing one of them??!! "

Regarding learning styles, I think the student also needs to learn how to adapt their learning style to meet the various teaching styles of coaches. Otherwise, you limit the coaching that you get to the same perspective, and both student and coach can get to a comfortable plateau that needs to be punched through for further progress.

sleder

I re read my my post this morning from last night; well my apologies for not communicating well at all. Lack of sleep did not help my thoughts come across well at all.
All I wanted to get across was simply, the ability to identify the objectives for the driver, and communicate the way for those objectives to obtained by the driver is the job of the coach. You need to use whatever methods you can, right seat, data, spotting, it all depends on the driver and the situation. The coach does not have to be the fastest lap turner, but does have to know how to communicate with the driver so they can perform at their best and get the results they are looking for.