Question about PCA instructor open passing
04-15-2010, 03:08 PM
#76
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As a NASA Instructor the rules for HPDE (not racing)
No passing w/o a point by. Therefore you point he passes. Otherwise he stays put until you signal, that can be before the corner, during the corner of after the corner. Your choice. Only do what you are comfortable with.
Again, no one says you have to give a point by in the middle of a corner unless you are comfortable.
However;
I n the context of passing in a corner
For # 2. You point where you are comfortable letting the other car go. T1-2, it is normal to give the point to the inside so you are moving offline slightly if done early in the turn, but there is no harm in you staying to the inside on 2 and then pointing the faster car to the outside. Again, wherever you are pointing to you are leaving them room to be with you.
T3 is a bit too fast for most folks to be doing a mid corner pass unless you offer the inside to them and move offline. Same for T4. T5 is slow enough to do it either way. Etc.
For #3.
If the other driver is talented and has a faster car then Yes he will be. If the speed differential is great enough all you have to do is move offline slightly in T6a/b or 7, 8 or 9 and they will rocket right past you.
Again, you don't have to move offline and you don't have to give a pass in a corner. The idea is that you are working cooperatively with the other drivers while sharing the track. You breathing off the gas and moving offline in a corner gets that faster car out of your world.
No passing w/o a point by. Therefore you point he passes. Otherwise he stays put until you signal, that can be before the corner, during the corner of after the corner. Your choice. Only do what you are comfortable with.
Again, no one says you have to give a point by in the middle of a corner unless you are comfortable.
However;
I n the context of passing in a corner
For # 2. You point where you are comfortable letting the other car go. T1-2, it is normal to give the point to the inside so you are moving offline slightly if done early in the turn, but there is no harm in you staying to the inside on 2 and then pointing the faster car to the outside. Again, wherever you are pointing to you are leaving them room to be with you.
T3 is a bit too fast for most folks to be doing a mid corner pass unless you offer the inside to them and move offline. Same for T4. T5 is slow enough to do it either way. Etc.
For #3.
If the other driver is talented and has a faster car then Yes he will be. If the speed differential is great enough all you have to do is move offline slightly in T6a/b or 7, 8 or 9 and they will rocket right past you.
Again, you don't have to move offline and you don't have to give a pass in a corner. The idea is that you are working cooperatively with the other drivers while sharing the track. You breathing off the gas and moving offline in a corner gets that faster car out of your world.
Thx Paul. Very helpful. I'm inclined to stay wide on a T1-T2 pass and give up the inside rather than rely on quasi-race rules as to who owns the corner. It isn't "racecraft" to do so but any offline work is another step toward wheel-to-wheel racing.
04-15-2010, 11:29 PM
#77
Rennlist Member
We started the advanced instructor passing rule last year and we have the no student rule, but I have instructed with Regions who don't enforce it. I think the rule was initiated as a baby step. In time it will either be abolished or just not enforced. In time, maybe along time, it will trickle down to advanced students.
this is PCA's way of competing with NASA, Ten Tenths and other groups with liberal passing.
After recently making the jump to racing, Just like a DE they have passing rules and if you are aware of what is around you it is surprising safe. Common sense rules.
04-17-2010, 09:51 PM
#79
The Penguin King
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I've driven quite a few open passing sessions with groups other than PCA, and with drivers of varying levels. The rules have always been that if you don't feel comfortable giving or taking a pass at any spot on the track, don't take it. Those of us comfortable with passing anywhere (well at least me) don't mind waiting for a point if the driver being overtaken doesn't want to give it in a turn.
To me, allowing passengers in the instructor group where open passing is allowed offers several benefits. First of all, I think it's good for students to see how well the instructors work together on the track. They can see how we execute passes, and learn from that. They get to see the faster pace as well. Also, for instructors, it makes it a lot easier to fit student rides into their day. I typically have two students. Between riding with them, and driving in the instructor run group, I don't have a lot of time to take care of my car, write notes in the comment book, and give rides. Taking students out in red would help me get all of my tasks done.
A possibility could be to not allow instructors to pass in turns when they have a student. It would be an easy thing for us to do. And wouldn't have much of an impact on the overall instructor run group.
To me, allowing passengers in the instructor group where open passing is allowed offers several benefits. First of all, I think it's good for students to see how well the instructors work together on the track. They can see how we execute passes, and learn from that. They get to see the faster pace as well. Also, for instructors, it makes it a lot easier to fit student rides into their day. I typically have two students. Between riding with them, and driving in the instructor run group, I don't have a lot of time to take care of my car, write notes in the comment book, and give rides. Taking students out in red would help me get all of my tasks done.
A possibility could be to not allow instructors to pass in turns when they have a student. It would be an easy thing for us to do. And wouldn't have much of an impact on the overall instructor run group.
04-17-2010, 10:26 PM
#80
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04-18-2010, 09:28 AM
#81
Race Car
Just limit instructors that can take riders to those that have W2W experience, and up to the discretion of the CI. (ie, they get an extra arm band)
rookie instructors in open passing, should not have any riders, for a few days, IMHO.
04-19-2010, 07:54 PM
#82
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04-19-2010, 08:05 PM
#83
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I noted elsewhere but will repeat that I thoroughly enjoyed my first open passing (with point-by) event with NASA at Summit Point this weekend. What I love about NASA is that it's all about grooming people to race, with increasing responsibility in HPDE, to Time Trials, and racing. Below is a video from a Spec Miata that I ran with. By our last two sessions we were intentionally setting up passes in dicey spots just to gain familiarity with running off-line. The "leap" from DE to racing is less intimidating when you introduce these elements at the DE level. And that means more people go racing, which is good for the sport.
I would love feedback (sorry you can't see my hands/feet) of my efforts (red 944 n/a). FFWD to 7:25 of this video and you get a good shot from behind me.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XeeAe...layer_embedded
I would love feedback (sorry you can't see my hands/feet) of my efforts (red 944 n/a). FFWD to 7:25 of this video and you get a good shot from behind me.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XeeAe...layer_embedded
04-19-2010, 08:24 PM
#84
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I always enjoyed taking my advanced students out in the instructor group. It is a great opportunity to show them the nuances that I find really hard to explain while in the right seat.
04-19-2010, 08:25 PM
#85
The Penguin King
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04-19-2010, 09:33 PM
#88
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I truly appretiate learning the nuances from our Chiefs and more Sr. Instructors. I was just at Lime Rock last Wed./Thurs. and the differences from braking 10 ft later upon entering big bend and apexing 2 feet sooner on the downhill were fantastic. Mixing this in with a "late pass" means all the difference in the world to me. We had to run in Black - not sure if running in Red would have made a difference to me, but it sure would have been easier on the Instructor I drove with. After full days at a DE, they do get worn out and I think I would prefer to go out with an Instructor in Red versus going out with one who is spent and taking me out in Black to meet my needs. Just another view.
