Veloce Raptor

Spot-on, Brian. This is NOT race craft, it is about fun & better car control off line. Again, I am all for this, but my beef is with the no passengers rule, especially for advanced instructors, since we can't give rides in the advanced run groups when we are riding with students. My issue is that, for some arbitrary & wee-todd-id reason, PCA says no passengers whereas other clubs say "BOOYAH! we STRONGLY encourage instructrs to take passengers!" Thius is just fundamentally stupid, and eliminates one of the very best teaching tools instructors have.







Professional Racing and Driving Coach

Brian P

Personally, I like the way Bob's region does it (I think it is the UCR region, but I'm not positive on that). Instructors are allowed to take passengers out but only at one level higher than the passenger's run group level.

This keeps green run group drivers from being passengers in a red run group (and potentially seeing more "exceptions" than "rules"). And, for those who are in a high enough run group, they might be passengers in a session that has open passing, which will give them a good chance to see how the rule is actually applied.

Erik

Personally don't have that much of a problem with the passenger rule. We run PBOC open passing, no students with the instructor, no hand signals, bad part is the full race suit needed. We have changed thru rules somewhat where we now hand out special passes to the instuctors who would like to take their student out for a session. They can then take there student out (in 1!! ) solo session.

We were one of the first PCA regions to allow open passing, with hand signal, no students in the car, but we can take a student in solo session for a ride.

Of course if you're gonna ask me what I would prefer, it would be open passing, no hand signal, no fire suit and student allowed, but I can live with the current rules since I'm always able to take a student in one of the other run groups. It has also severly cut down on my other passengers (which is sometimes nice) since I now have an excuse on why I don't want/can't to take them for a ride.

Manny Alban

[QUOTE=Veloce Raptor;7476282]No. BMW Club & PCA buy their insurance from the same company. If BMW club allows it, PCA should too. Also, I have heard rumors that in the Northeast, they have allowed students to ride in open passing instructor sessions for quite some time...QUOTE]

Not necessarily true. The insurance company basis their rates on the club's policies, standards, claims, etc. If we decided to allow no signal passing, timing on all DE's, etc, the insurance company may stay the same, but the rates would probably increase substantially. Our insurance company covers all of PCA, not just DE and Club Racing. Thus whenever we implement a policy or procedure, we must evaluate how it will affect the club as a whole.

Your best bet is to contact Pete Tremper regarding the passing question. He's got plenty of time now that he's retired

docwyte

I see no good reason to only allow an instructor to take a student out in 1 run group higher than the student normally runs.

Brian P

Hopefully Bob Rouleau will chime in on this one. I believe that this is the policy enforced by his region and they have some incredibly small number of "incidents" in their DE program. If I recall correctly, they usually run at 1 or fewer incidents in DE per year.

Bob Rouleau

Brian, I did back about 15 posts ago

In our Red group the only passengers allowed are other Instructors or Instructors in training. Our Red group runs under more relaxed rules for passing (signals always required though) and we have more passing zones, some of which are quite tight.

Instructors can take advanced students out in Black (one down from Instructors). The pace there is as quick as Red and there is nothing you can't teach an advanced driver in that group. We do not want non-instructors to adopt Red rules

My experience with other clubs that do allow unrestricted passengers in Red is that some of the "rides" are to allow an Instructor to show off, and gawd forbid I get one of those guys as a student later in the day! I hate sitting next to a guy who has ridden with a top driver who is running near his limit but far above that of a lesser skilled person.

FGL28

I think it is all about risk management and what the lawyers think is a risk. Nevermind the benefits; they are afraid of the possible negative outcomes.

Just my $.02

docwyte

Which is why anytime you have a student in the car you shouldn't go past 7/10ths and all 4 need to stay on pavement.

Just because a student sees the rules that a higher run group adhere to doesn't mean they're going to go out and do that in their own run group. I've never had that be an issue...

BostonDMD

I find it interesting that in order to W2W race with PCA you only need to have so many events in White......

The Red group, which hypothetically should have much more skilled drivers, still needs a point by to pass.......

It doesn't really matter to me, since I don't instruct, but I bet open passing in Red would attract more racers to instruct.......

paradisenb

Our region experienced with this last yr in the instructor only group. this yr they are expanding it to the top 2 groups (4 & 5 for us). It technically is not Open Passing. There are still passing zones they are just expanded to include some corners and a point by is manditory.

In Nasa SE on the other hand we have open passing any where on the track. Point by are susgestions more than absolutes as long as everyone is playing nicely. This is how a Racing Organisation prepares participants for W2W.

PCA teaches HP driving basics but doesn't really prepare a driver for W2W. Look at My Laps and you will see the steep learnig curve MOST, new to racing, PCA drivers go through when they first start racing. This is from lack of exposure to 'Open Passing' anywhere on the track and the need to manage traffic and be aware of all cars, front, sides and back. I think the limits they employ are in keeping with their philosophy.

As for students as passengers in the extended passing groups, I think they should be allowed with approved instructors. I see no reason not to get students exposed to what will come later when they are ready.

TRAKCAR

Exactly what Erik said, except I want my windows closed and use turn signals only for (optional) point by's in open passing.. Can we just give all the track workers a hammer?

Also; I think it so works well in our area with PBOC and PCA because the open passing group is run very strict.
The open passing groups are very limited, you need several check out rides and lots of experience without ANY incidents. We pretty much self-police, it is demanded. Someone does something stupid you must report and / or show video. You have to be able to take critisism and we know who we know well enough on track to go side by side and who we are not comfortable or unfamiliar with to share a corner... When in doubt don't pass...

I've run with other DE schools and it was down right dangerous. I would not go there again, as soon as I have to make evasive manuevres on track to not get hit, I'm gone.

Veloce Raptor

And there's the problem (for me and other advanced instructors): it is impossible to take a student out in our cars in White (your Black). Why? Because we are usually 100% assigned in that group already to ride right seat. So what this means is that our advanced instructors--theoretically our best drivers & instructors--are literally unable to teach from the left seat. No matter what the reason, this is f*cking lunacy and a total waste of our best resources. And not much fun.

Manny, thanks for your comments. However, the same insurance company also insures all of the BMW club, too, IIRC. I recall this from when I was chief instructor for a BMW club chapter here in Texas for 2 years. This is NOT rocket science. If NASA can make it work, and the BMW club can make it work--especially at high danger tracks like Road Atlanta--with zero issues, I cannot fathom why the brain trust at PCA (of which I am a member) still insist on living in the paleolithic era. Maybe it's all about control & ego? There can be no other valid explanation. (not directed at Manny)







Professional Racing and Driving Coach

Bob Rouleau

Dave, in my region instructors get 1 (one) student only per event. They do spend some time with signed off drivers who ask for help but it is voluntary so there is time to ride with and or take them out in a higher run group.

One of the concerns PCA has is the separation between DE and racing. This was the result of a couple of nasty lawsuits in the North East as I recall.

I am dismayed by the number of 'incidents' at DE. We have very few some seasons none at all, but more often than not, one. That's one incident out of 700 driver days. That's one too many in my book but it seems we are far above average when it comes to safety. I am concerned that sooner or later, insurance companies are going to shut us down.

dwe8922

I would definitely trade the ability to take a student out in red, to keep open passing, if we had to choose. I filed insurance for our region the last two years, and they seemed to get pickier each year. We have to be very protective of our policy, for the good of the whole club.

Open passing is great, especially when there is such a range in car capability as we have these days. My experience so far is that our PCA drivers are still getting used to it, whereas the chin drivers have been doing it all along. For example, at roebling I was getting point by's, in turns, way in advance from miatas, to the point where I hardly had to lift, in a cup! It was awesome. Nobody seemed to get held up at all. I would love to see our PCA events get there as well because it makes for such a great flow, and better prepares drivers for the step up to club racing.