Veloce Raptor

PCA is "experimenting" with open passing in instructor run groups (with a point by) in many areas of the US, incluuding here in Texas. This "experiment" has been going on for about a year, even though anecdotal information suggests some PCA regions have allowed open instructor passing for much longer thhan that.

While this is a good program, the one downside is that PCA still will not allow instructors to take students as passengers in any open passing sessions, even after a year with, from what I can tell, no instructor "incidents". Instructors are allowed to take student passengers in other non-instructor run groups.

IMO, this is putting the kibosh on a VERY valuable teaching tool, especially for instructors like me who work with advanced students, since we are uusually "working" in the right seat in other run groups, and do not have the time to give rides in anything but the instructor group.

Can someone please tell me why, after a year, this prohibition still exists? I instruct for various other clubs (like BMWCCA) at tracks with very high consequences--Road Atlanta, Barber, etc.--and they not only allow instructor to take students in the pen passing instructor run groups, but aggressively encourage it.

So what gives, PCA?







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jbossolo

Great question indeed. My region tried it for a couple events, then went back to "traditional" passing rules. Some resistance from a few pussies in the region (actually, just one- you know who you are). And the punchline- the guy that put up the most resistance isn't even an instructor. What a POS!!!

Interested to see other responses.

PedroNole

Seems like a reasonable request to me.... If we think enough of a group of people's skills to let them run in open passing, why wouldn't we let them take a passenger?

RonCT

Last year we tried it as a pilot and it worked very well, so repeating this year. The student prohibition is news to me. What's the theoretical reason? Is this info posted somewhere?

docwyte

Open passing with NASA isn't a problem. You tend to run with all the same people and we're all courteous to one another. Almost always give each other a point by and plenty of room. We can also take students for rides in our run group...

Is it an insurance thing with PCA? I don't see the logic behind it otherwise.

Bob Rouleau

We tried open passing, concluded than on our home tracks it sucked. Sharing the corner road half and half slows both cars down and one of us gets to pick up marbles on our hot tires. We have plenty of passing zones and pass under braking in Red so the benefit was/is nil.

However , Dave, your question is not about open passing after all. In our region only another instructor or and instructor in training is allowed as a passenger in Red. Nobody minds since advanced training can and does take place in Black. Our Black group is a quick as Red and is composed guys who do not want to instruct, usually because they can't spare the time or energy due to their commitments to racing

Eifeler

Ran with my coach in the instructor group a few weeks ago. It was open passing with a point by. As a student, I would concur that it is very helpful and hope that the practice is continued and/or expanded to other regions.

Veloce Raptor

Not sure the theoretical reason. PCA's language is below. in reality, 99% of all passes are still made on the straights, since not too many folks really wheel-to-wheel race. But the no passenger thing is just stupid IMO.

"Expanded Passing Program: The Event Chairman may choose to implement the expanded passing program. With expanded passing, passing may occur on all portions of the track, including all turns. If expanded passing is allowed at an event, it shall follow these restrictions:
• Expanded passing will ONLY be run in the Instructors run group which may include non-instructors.
• All passing must be initiated WITH A HAND SIGNAL.
• All signals MUST BE demonstratively clear and there must be one for each car.
• All signals are “real time”. If you initiate a pass with a signal, expect a car to pass at the time you give the signal, not at the next straight away.
• All signals are a contract between two drivers. If you initiate, let the car pass. If you are given a signal and decline, you must wave off the signal.
• No more than two cars side by side in the turn.
• When entering a turn with another car, NO ONE OWNS THE TURN. Each driver is entitled to 50% of the track as if there was a white line through the center of the turn.
• The only passengers allowed in the expanded passing run groups are qualified instructors.
• All drivers of the designated run group must participate in expanded passing. Any driver who does not care to participate must be moved to another run group.
This program is self-policed and any passing done without a signal or over aggressive driving may result in exclusion from the program or may be dealt with as decided by Regional DE management."







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trackjunky

Are there any insurance or legal ramifications that would prevent PCA from moving in this direction?

For instance, I know timing an event effects coverage. How about unrestricted passing - if in fact this is the way it may be viewed?

Veloce Raptor

No. BMW Club & PCA buy their insurance from the same company. If BMW club allows it, PCA should too. Also, I have heard rumors that in the Northeast, they have allowed students to ride in open passing instructor sessions for quite some time...









Professional Racing and Driving Coach

trackjunky

Could we pilot it with just the Advanced Instructors first? Show feedback combined with safety.

Limit it to Yellow and White student ride alongs. Solicit feedback via e-mail afterwards and build a case.

bobt993

Dave, You can contact Pete Tremper as to the reason(s). He got this program started and it has helped bring more participation from racers to the DE groups. I think it was a stretch for him to get this much allowed. Learning to coexist in corners is more race craft than DE application, but I understand your beef.

jaje

We just did this at last weekend's Gateway PCA DE (instructor group only - no students allowed). My observations:
- As I've been racing so passing in corners was not a new concept to me.
- 99% of instructors should be mature enough to make these decisions (but in the end there are always those who will have a lack of proper judgment form time to time).
- When I would give a pass in the turn or perform one I would not give one or take one if I was not sure I could do it safely.
- Where I gave a point by in a turn I would give a 1-2 car width spacing for those I let through (open passing only from exit of turn 6 to entrance of turn 3 - see Gateway track map for detail). A lot of corners are wide enough that you can give a pass signal and have no ill effect on having to be so far off line (you'd be amazed the amount of room that can be had in corners when done right).
- If I was not comfortable letting someone do it I would not give them the point by (point by is up to the overtaken car and the overtaking car can accept or pull back in line).
- As with all high speed driving - both need to have a mature attitude (this is 99% of the time). Why should the seldom few who will have this lack no matter the conditions ruin it for everyone else (a.k.a. why are they instructing)?
- You don't have to go all the way off line to the edge of the road to let someone by and you don't have to slow up to substantially that it ruins the effect.
- If I wanted to take a passenger out I would go in the Group 1/2 class (Advanced). Though I agree that testing this for a period of time to make sure it's safe before Instructors are allowed to have passengers.

DCP

From a student perspective, I'll add another vote for changing the rule.

Brian P

I think the sharing of a corner is very different at a race than it is at a DE. At a DE, you have two people trying to coexist, and as Bob pointed out, the rules state that one person should be on one half of the road and the other person should be on the other.

At a race, I'm not really trying to coexist. If I'm duking it out with someone (and what happens depends heavily on the specific corner), I may decided to brake as late as possible and hope the other person concedes. If not, then we'll go side by side in the corner with both of us likely sharing the same half of the road. We are each relying on the other person's skills to ensure that we can each go 10/10's through the corner and not have an impact.

I would never try a "race craft" corner pass at a DE as I simply don't know the other drivers well enough to know if I could trust them with this maneuver.

I see the value of having passes occur in the braking zone at a DE and possibly well after the apex but before final trackout. I'd probably take a mid-corner pass from someone at a DE, but I'm not sure I'd ever give one. If I thought someone would catch me before the apex, I'd likely just brake a bit earlier and let them by on the preceding straight.