Mercedes GP and Schumacher: How Much Improvement Will We See?
04-07-2010, 04:10 PM
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Mercedes GP and Schumacher: How Much Improvement Will We See?
I would put Mercedes race pace, best case scenario, fourth among all the teams. Nico's driven well, but his podium at Malaysia is a byproduct of Ferrari and Mclaren not qualifying well. He's definitely beaten Schumacher both in outright pace and productivity (scoring points). I'm not saying that's not to be expected, but we have Ross Brawn running the show and Schumacher driving for him. I'd like to hear some opinions as to when we'll see either Mercedes, and then the Mercedes/Schumacher package, compete consistently for podiums in terms of outright race pace. Is is going to happen before the end of the season?
I have a feeling I know what some of the answers are going to be, but have at it anyway.
I have a feeling I know what some of the answers are going to be, but have at it anyway.
04-07-2010, 04:23 PM
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Keep in mind that Ross will "pull the plug" on this season and start concentrating on next years car if they do not see results in a resonable timeframe. Did I see June someplace? It that happens they'll just lap around with what they have and you'll see no improvment.
04-07-2010, 04:24 PM
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Originally Posted by A.Wayne
It will never happen, Stoolmacher is a bum
I think that it will take until at least mid season for MS to get his driving to what ever level it will rise to, and then be able to get the car adjusted to maximize his style. If he is going to out-right challenge for podiums, I don't see it happening until Aug or Sept.
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Larry Herman
2016 Ford Transit Connect Titanium LWB
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Retired Club Racer & National PCA Instructor
Past Flames:
1994 RS America Club Racer
2004 GT3 Track Car
1984 911 Carrera Club Racer
1974 914/4 2.0 Track Car
CLICK HERE to see some of my ancient racing videos.
04-07-2010, 04:39 PM
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Amazing. The first two posts are exactly my thoughts.
- MS hates understeer - that's why his cars, as described by Martin Brundle, were always very nervous in the rear and had incredibly responsive turn in. This year's cars are prone to understeer and that, in combination with a 3 year break, explains why Michael's off the pace. I say that it may take until the end of this year, maybe as long as the beginning of next year, to see him in his previous form.
- Brawn pulled the plug on developing the 1999 car after MS broke his leg to concentrate on the F1-2000 championship winner. He did the same thing on the F2005 and came back with a car that almost won the championship in 2006, and we know what happened last year after a year's work of development. A sign of good things to come? I'd say so.
- MS hates understeer - that's why his cars, as described by Martin Brundle, were always very nervous in the rear and had incredibly responsive turn in. This year's cars are prone to understeer and that, in combination with a 3 year break, explains why Michael's off the pace. I say that it may take until the end of this year, maybe as long as the beginning of next year, to see him in his previous form.
- Brawn pulled the plug on developing the 1999 car after MS broke his leg to concentrate on the F1-2000 championship winner. He did the same thing on the F2005 and came back with a car that almost won the championship in 2006, and we know what happened last year after a year's work of development. A sign of good things to come? I'd say so.
04-07-2010, 04:49 PM
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I don't know how long it will take but IMO it will be a big mistake if they try to make the car suit Michael, Nico is better than him and their future, they need to cater his needs or at least so that it's not against what he wants (which I'm afraid they'll do).
This will only result in two somewhat average results instead of one average (MS) and one good (NR).
Sorry all MS fans but he ain't what he used to be and things aren't getting any better by time, instead it's the opposite.
This will only result in two somewhat average results instead of one average (MS) and one good (NR).
Sorry all MS fans but he ain't what he used to be and things aren't getting any better by time, instead it's the opposite.
04-07-2010, 07:07 PM
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I think MS will get up to speed later in the year. He has not turned many laps in an F1 car for 3+ years. These other driver's all 'in the groove' from several yrs of continuous driving, including NR. I say mid-season will be the turning point if it is going to happen this year for him and the car.
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04-07-2010, 07:54 PM
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I think that by mid-year MS will own Nico Rosberg.
04-07-2010, 09:29 PM
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In the meantime, as long as he does not over drive his car, Vettel + Red Bull will prove to everyone that this is the winning combination and no amount of Schumacher this or Rosberg that talk will matter. But what do I know. 
04-08-2010, 03:36 PM
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My guess is that you are 100% correct in that Mercedes will not be able to give Red Bull a run for their money this year. I picked Vettel to win the driver's championship, but I'm really not sure if the car's going to hold up. They have a long season ahead of them and my guess would be that the reliability would get much better, but the question is how much is left the development of those Ferraris and Mclarens. If I had to take a guess, I'd still say Vettel wins, but I wouldn't count Ferrari or the Evil Empire out of it. 
04-08-2010, 03:51 PM
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Wow, 24 hours for a thread with Schumacher in the title and no sign of Sir A.Wayne.
I would have thought for sure he would be all over this thread like a dog dry humping your leg.
I sense a disturbance in the force...
I would have thought for sure he would be all over this thread like a dog dry humping your leg.
I sense a disturbance in the force...
04-08-2010, 03:56 PM
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09-28-2010, 02:35 PM
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/moto...ne/9037790.stm
Why Michael Schumacher will never be back to his best
By Mark Hughes
BBC F1 commentary box producer in Singapore
Singapore represented Michael Schumacher's most woeful performance since his Chinese Grand Prix debacle.
It is now accepted as normal that he qualifies a few tenths of a second behind team-mate Nico Rosberg, as he did here. But a scrappy, slow, incident and error-filled race underlined the fact that Schumacher has got worse, not better, as his first season back from retirement has progressed.
It leads to the inevitable question of whether Schumacher will continue his comeback into 2011 - and has even led some to question the merit of his staggering previous successes.
Looking only at the final qualifying sessions in which both Mercedes have taken part (ie sometimes the top-10 shoot-out, other times the second session), Schumacher has qualified an average of 0.3 seconds off Rosberg, with the younger man having shaded the veteran 12 times to three.
In the races, Schumacher has only 38% of Rosberg's points haul.
Singapore collisions unsettle Schumacher
Even more concerning for Schumacher is that the trend is negative - ie he was closer to his team-mate's pace earlier in the season than he is now.
Splitting the season into the first seven races and the second eight, Schumacher qualified an average of 0.136secs adrift of Rosberg in the first 'half', 0.359secs in the latter 'half'.
In the races he took 51% of Rosberg's points haul in the first seven races, only 21% in the next eight.
In Singapore, having qualified almost 0.4secs slower than Rosberg, his average race pace between the start and when he made his tyre stop was almost 0.9ecs slower than his team-mate's. Both cars were in clear air for most of those 20-odd racing laps and on the same specification of tyre.
Schumacher ran in an early eighth place, made an error exiting Turn Five under pressure from the much faster car of Mark Webber that enabled the Red Bull to pass, then suffered a delay at his pit stop that dropped him a long way down the field.
Shortly thereafter he tried a clumsy pass on Nick Heidfeld's Sauber that resulted in a collision.
There is no question of Schumacher being dismissed but there must surely be serious questions about why he would choose to continue
If this set of statistics belonged to a rookie driver, it is doubtful whether he would retain his drive into the following season.
There is no question of Schumacher being dismissed, of course, but there must surely be serious questions about why he would choose to continue.
Having stood trackside at some stage of every grand prix weekend for the last decade and a bit, witnessed Schumacher at his peak and in his comeback, the visual evidence of the dimming of his skills is obvious.
In his Ferrari years, to see his first lap out of the pits through a corner such as Spa's Pouhon was to witness awe-inspiring genius that left you barely comprehending how what you had just seen could be possible.
He would commit totally to the blind exit, flat-in-top downhill entry corner, a down-change just after turning in and the car would be shuddering on the edge of adhesion, visibly faster than anything else - and Schumacher would make not a single further input because to do so would have sent the car off.
Schumacher has been behind Rosberg virtually all year
He would sit on this delicate knife-edge until the car was fully loaded up and pointed directly at the apex and then simply power his way out.
To be able to sit immediately on this incredibly narrow balancing point was a skill beyond the reach of his rivals. It is now beyond him, too
See Schumacher in 2010 and he looks nothing like this.
Sure, the Mercedes is way less competitive than most of his Ferraris were but do not forget he produced regular displays of genius in the outclassed Ferraris of 1996 or 2005.
Watching him around the Singapore streets, he looked much as he has done all year.
He can carry a lot of commitment and momentum into the entry of a corner, just like he used to, but between the turn-in point and the apex he is wrestling with the car, rather than feeling and anticipating it the way he used to.
There are more frequent displays of his raw car control than before - precisely because he is not ahead of the car, not anticipating the way he used to but simply reacting to it.
To the untrained eye it looks impressive but actually it is a signal of lack of feel - in much the same way that Vitaly Petrov, say, tends to look more spectacular than the much faster Renault team-mate Robert Kubica. Very rarely were two consecutive Schumacher runs through a Singapore corner the same last weekend.
Schumacher's driving sensitivity is dulled now and his adaptability is not what it was
Schumacher says it is to do with how the gripless control Bridgestone tyres do not allow him the front-end grip to be able to drive in his natural way. There is a logic to this.
With a grippy front end, he would previously get the car pointed early at the apex using his delicate feel to transfer the weight under braking and cornering, pivoting the car around so it changed direction early, with the minimum of steering lock.
The less steering lock, the less speed-sapping front-tyre scrub, the earlier you can get the car pointed at the apex, the earlier you can get on the power. These tyres do not allow you to drive in that way.
But in the past Schumacher has adapted brilliantly to understeering cars. He used to adapt his style corner by corner, lap by lap, to whatever was appropriate.
ANDREW BENSON'S BLOG
Fernando Alonso's victory in the first of the five deciding races of the season has fundamentally altered the dynamics of the title battle.
He was quite brilliant, for example, in how he could adopt a very aggressive style on his first lap out of the pits to get the tyres quickly up to temperature, then adopt a totally different style as the rubber came up to its correct working range.
Schumacher is keen to try the 2011 Pirelli control tyres, especially on next year's car.
Should that combination give him the front end he says he needs, would the magic return? It would surely improve his performance but why would it see him return to his previous level?
The driving style was a mere expression of a level of feel and balance - a miraculous combination of inner ear sensitivity to lateral accelerations and the co-ordination of that with his limbs - that was on a different level to anyone else's.
His 2010 performances have revealed that sensitivity is dulled now and that his adaptability is not what it was. If he cannot be what he once was, could he bring himself to continue regardless?
Why Michael Schumacher will never be back to his best
By Mark Hughes
BBC F1 commentary box producer in Singapore
Singapore represented Michael Schumacher's most woeful performance since his Chinese Grand Prix debacle.
It is now accepted as normal that he qualifies a few tenths of a second behind team-mate Nico Rosberg, as he did here. But a scrappy, slow, incident and error-filled race underlined the fact that Schumacher has got worse, not better, as his first season back from retirement has progressed.
It leads to the inevitable question of whether Schumacher will continue his comeback into 2011 - and has even led some to question the merit of his staggering previous successes.
Looking only at the final qualifying sessions in which both Mercedes have taken part (ie sometimes the top-10 shoot-out, other times the second session), Schumacher has qualified an average of 0.3 seconds off Rosberg, with the younger man having shaded the veteran 12 times to three.
In the races, Schumacher has only 38% of Rosberg's points haul.
Singapore collisions unsettle Schumacher
Even more concerning for Schumacher is that the trend is negative - ie he was closer to his team-mate's pace earlier in the season than he is now.
Splitting the season into the first seven races and the second eight, Schumacher qualified an average of 0.136secs adrift of Rosberg in the first 'half', 0.359secs in the latter 'half'.
In the races he took 51% of Rosberg's points haul in the first seven races, only 21% in the next eight.
In Singapore, having qualified almost 0.4secs slower than Rosberg, his average race pace between the start and when he made his tyre stop was almost 0.9ecs slower than his team-mate's. Both cars were in clear air for most of those 20-odd racing laps and on the same specification of tyre.
Schumacher ran in an early eighth place, made an error exiting Turn Five under pressure from the much faster car of Mark Webber that enabled the Red Bull to pass, then suffered a delay at his pit stop that dropped him a long way down the field.
Shortly thereafter he tried a clumsy pass on Nick Heidfeld's Sauber that resulted in a collision.
There is no question of Schumacher being dismissed but there must surely be serious questions about why he would choose to continue
If this set of statistics belonged to a rookie driver, it is doubtful whether he would retain his drive into the following season.
There is no question of Schumacher being dismissed, of course, but there must surely be serious questions about why he would choose to continue.
Having stood trackside at some stage of every grand prix weekend for the last decade and a bit, witnessed Schumacher at his peak and in his comeback, the visual evidence of the dimming of his skills is obvious.
In his Ferrari years, to see his first lap out of the pits through a corner such as Spa's Pouhon was to witness awe-inspiring genius that left you barely comprehending how what you had just seen could be possible.
He would commit totally to the blind exit, flat-in-top downhill entry corner, a down-change just after turning in and the car would be shuddering on the edge of adhesion, visibly faster than anything else - and Schumacher would make not a single further input because to do so would have sent the car off.
Schumacher has been behind Rosberg virtually all year
He would sit on this delicate knife-edge until the car was fully loaded up and pointed directly at the apex and then simply power his way out.
To be able to sit immediately on this incredibly narrow balancing point was a skill beyond the reach of his rivals. It is now beyond him, too
See Schumacher in 2010 and he looks nothing like this.
Sure, the Mercedes is way less competitive than most of his Ferraris were but do not forget he produced regular displays of genius in the outclassed Ferraris of 1996 or 2005.
Watching him around the Singapore streets, he looked much as he has done all year.
He can carry a lot of commitment and momentum into the entry of a corner, just like he used to, but between the turn-in point and the apex he is wrestling with the car, rather than feeling and anticipating it the way he used to.
There are more frequent displays of his raw car control than before - precisely because he is not ahead of the car, not anticipating the way he used to but simply reacting to it.
To the untrained eye it looks impressive but actually it is a signal of lack of feel - in much the same way that Vitaly Petrov, say, tends to look more spectacular than the much faster Renault team-mate Robert Kubica. Very rarely were two consecutive Schumacher runs through a Singapore corner the same last weekend.
Schumacher's driving sensitivity is dulled now and his adaptability is not what it was
Schumacher says it is to do with how the gripless control Bridgestone tyres do not allow him the front-end grip to be able to drive in his natural way. There is a logic to this.
With a grippy front end, he would previously get the car pointed early at the apex using his delicate feel to transfer the weight under braking and cornering, pivoting the car around so it changed direction early, with the minimum of steering lock.
The less steering lock, the less speed-sapping front-tyre scrub, the earlier you can get the car pointed at the apex, the earlier you can get on the power. These tyres do not allow you to drive in that way.
But in the past Schumacher has adapted brilliantly to understeering cars. He used to adapt his style corner by corner, lap by lap, to whatever was appropriate.
ANDREW BENSON'S BLOG
Fernando Alonso's victory in the first of the five deciding races of the season has fundamentally altered the dynamics of the title battle.
He was quite brilliant, for example, in how he could adopt a very aggressive style on his first lap out of the pits to get the tyres quickly up to temperature, then adopt a totally different style as the rubber came up to its correct working range.
Schumacher is keen to try the 2011 Pirelli control tyres, especially on next year's car.
Should that combination give him the front end he says he needs, would the magic return? It would surely improve his performance but why would it see him return to his previous level?
The driving style was a mere expression of a level of feel and balance - a miraculous combination of inner ear sensitivity to lateral accelerations and the co-ordination of that with his limbs - that was on a different level to anyone else's.
His 2010 performances have revealed that sensitivity is dulled now and that his adaptability is not what it was. If he cannot be what he once was, could he bring himself to continue regardless?
