multi21

MJ,

Senna is a different story because of his premature death. No one wants to broach the subject in respect and let him RIP, but I'm sure that if he had lived, there were many things that would have been written in the negative about him too including his aggressive driving to the point where he was running people off the road to the detrement of both his and the other driver's safety.

We've already been over this before. Senna had a "spiritual" type feel in the car where Schumacher was a machine, analysiing and constantly evaluating data points and situations to produce a win. Very different styles, same result. I just can't help but laugh when people (ie Wayne) bring up one pass here or there as compared to an entire career.

Flying Finn

This.

Pete,

I don't think anyone disagrees when someone points out how ruthless Senna was on track but when it comes driving and sheer talent, he was above anyone else.

Schumi's got the numbers all right but he ain't Senna. Never was, never will be.

multi21

Good story, but as usual you forgot to mention the details of what happened that day. I remember it vividly and I was extremely happy that Rubens got his first win ever (Actually it was about time because he just couldn't hold a candle to MS).

That was the race when the idiot in a Kilt crossed the back straight. It also rained heavily and caused a scramble in the running order. THAT is why Rubens won his first race. It wasn't some mad dash from 18th to 1st.

Here is a better story. Remember Schumacher's last race in a Ferrari? It was Interlagos 2006. Mechanical problems in qualifying (fuel pressure issue I believe), punctured tire in the race to the point where he was almost lapped by Massa who led and eventually won the race. Schumacher storms from the back in the middle of the race passing people left and right including Finns hero Kimi in a McLaren all the way to 4th! No rain, no Kilted men running across the track, no safety cars, just straight speed.

Oh, how they forget....

Larry Herman

Gotta agree with that. Sometimes these "discussions" are a primer on how to use information out of context.

Based on the one pass rule I guess that makes JV one of the best ever considering his outside pass of Schumacher in 1996 at Estoril, right?

multi21

Finn,

You are very combative with everyone lately... not your style at all. I said Senna had a "spirtual" style when in the car, Godly if you will, natural talent from above. Schumacher didn't have the natural talent like that, but was very smart and worked hard to get his results. I admire that.

We were robbed too early of what could have been the greatest rivalry in F1 ever -- an experienced Senna and a young up and comer Schumacher who were willing to win at any cost.

Flying Finn

Correction my friend.

I like Kimi a lot, he can drive well and is a great guy, very "anti-Formula 1" type which I like (Vettel & Kubica are currently the most like that) but he ain't my hero, when it comes to Formula 1, here's my hero.

A.Wayne

Pete ,

You wouldn't understand anything about motor racing if it feel on your head


What is it you do not get , the 18th position ready car , or him passing Mika , you ever seen how hard it is to pass Mika, imagine on a wet track ...

Let me help you ....In case you forgot :

http://il.youtube.com/watch?v=nQuI6WrTK8o

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqrw4...eature=related

Here is Schumacher with a much faster car and still can't get by Hakkinen:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohCu1...eature=related

Give Barichello his props and most importantly give todt his props for his ability to make Schuamcher look that good over the years, not easy turning Barichello up and down as need's be.. That's what we saw in Germany..




Your desire to compare Senna to Schumacher is ludicrous, even Schumacher himself thinks it's ludicrous and frightening ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XeZcKk4RaA0


Ralf reaction, still makes me laugh ......

TwentySix

Seems like MS is going to stick around
Ross Brawn Q&A: More motivated than ever After winning five consecutive titles together at Ferrari, Ross Brawn and Michael Schumacher have a mountain to climb before they can consider achieving even a fraction of that at their new project, Mercedes GP. Team principal Brawn, however, is adamant Schumacher’s decision to come out of retirement was right, and is convinced both the team and the German driver will be stronger next season…

Q: Ross, how often this season have you had time to ponder how to improve the Mercedes while sitting in your rose garden or while fly-fishing?
Ross Brawn: (Laughing) Ah, to be honest I still had some days off to relax, but I have to admit it wasn’t all too often! This season is really demanding and difficult for me. Funnily enough, these rather slim successes have boosted my motivation and determination. I would say that right here, right now I am more motivated than I was a year ago when it looked pretty clear that we would win both titles.

Q: It sounds as though your first year of partnership with Mercedes has been a disappointment?
RB: Formula One is a very competitive business. A few tenths can decide if a season was a success or a failure. We had decided by mid-season that we would rather concentrate on the future - meaning the 2011 car. I am a realist and have been in the business long enough to know that frustration can sometimes be part of the game.

Q: What exactly has gone wrong?
RB: I don’t want to dig up excuses, but the fact is this car was being developed when the team was in the reconstruction phase. When I took over the team from Honda at the end of 2008 we had to downsize our headcount by 100 and it took quite some time until we were fully operational again. At the same time our focus was to win the championship, which is why we have invested less than we ought to have done in this year’s car. Right now I feel that we are in a good state compared to Ferrari, Red Bull and Ferrari - given the fact that we are already a substantially smaller team than they are. That makes me very optimistic for the future.

Q: In 2011 the headcount at all the teams has to be reduced. But isn’t it a fact that the three top teams, who still have a huge headcount, still have the advantage as they can develop next year’s car with more manpower?
RB: Maybe. But right now we are already 100 percent focused on next year’s car whereas those fighting for the championship have to split their resources. In the end it’s not an advantage or a downside that we have, as we are developing the 2011 car with the same resources as Ferrari, McLaren and Red Bull.

Q: Although you’re already focusing on next year’s car it doesn’t necessarily mean Michael Schumacher will win a race again. He has been beaten frequently by his team mate, Nico Rosberg, even though you always stressed that their driving styles are pretty similar…
RB: It is not as simple as that. Michael’s driving style depends on a strong front tyre that can withstand his hard braking and the steering manoeuvres that he prefers. Nico has simply understood better how to handle these front tyres. I have to say that this year’s front tyre is very uncommon. That stems from the fact that the FIA wanted to promote KERS and had asked Bridgestone to develop tyres that would fit a certain weight distribution and thus create a specific tyre characteristic.

Q: So Bridgestone is to blame for Schumacher’s failed comeback?
RB: Of course not - and Nico is a fantastic driver and a real benchmark, aside from the fact that Michael found it difficult to adjust to these tyres. Next year we expect the Pirelli tyres will work better for Michael’s driving style and only then will we know if Nico really is quicker than Michael.

Q: So do you already have data from Pirelli which has given you hope their tyres will solve Schumacher’s issues?
RB: In fact we still have very little information about the tyre characteristics. But as particular as the Bridgestone tyres have been this year I don’t expect the Pirelli tyres to be. There has even been a change for the worse from 2009 to 2010 - something that we had not anticipated and thus had not considered for our weight distribution.

Q: Does that mean Schumacher would have struggled less had he returned to racing in 2009?
RB: The tyres definitely would have suited his driving style more. But without any tests that would have been difficult. In 2011 all drivers start from zero, so any disadvantage Michael might have will disappear.

Q: To what degree are you developing the chassis to suit Schumacher?
RB: Not really. This year it simply was the fact that Michael and the car simply were running over the front tyre. The major difference between the three front-running teams and us is that they’ve found a way to use the front tyre and we haven’t.

Q: In Hollywood the saying goes that you are only as good as your last movie. For a Formula One driver that means their last race. How is Schumacher coping?
RB: Michael is disappointed, of course. Still he is enjoying the challenge very much. He definitely doesn’t come to a race wishing to be somewhere else. He wants to work with the engineers, wants to find solutions and is extremely motivated. He is enjoying racing. His starts are fantastic and he’s doing incredible first laps. But of course he’s also a bit frustrated that his performance isn’t better. But I tell you, Michael is a very ambitious person and he didn’t win seven titles because he’s quick to capitulate. He is working very intensively with the engineers and pushes the people back home in the factory.

Q: You have known him for a very long time, and you are probably the only person who is really able to judge his performance. Has his skill diminished?
RB: He has become more relaxed. Five years ago he would have found it terribly difficult to handle such a situation. He’s much cooler and much more mature - and that doesn’t mean that he is less ambitious or committed. I am really impressed with how calm he stays.

Q: But to be blunt - is he as good as he was?
RB: If you take the telemetry data in fast corners or his reaction time when the car breaks away, I don’t see any difference. There he’s still the old Michael. But in the slow corners he cannot make full use of the tyres as Nico can. Nico has put the bar very high in this respect. But I guess that’s okay for Michael as he clearly sees where he has to improve. I predict that in 2011 we will again see the true Michael - when we’ve delivered him a better car.

Q: Before, Schumacher was always the benchmark. Now it is his team mate. How is he dealing with that?
RB: Well, naturally he’s not happy about it, but he has a clear goal to reach - and he has always loved challenges.

Q: How often does he call you about the development of the 2011 car?
RB: We speak a lot but he is also speaking a lot to the engineers and the aerodynamicists. On one hand to support us, on the other to see how we are progressing.

Q: If he weren’t Michael Schumacher - the seven-time world champion - would he still be in the car?
RB: To be honest, probably not. But because we know Michael, we know that there is still a lot to come because Michael is in many fields more talented than others - in driving and in the cooperation with the team. The team are very happy with the way Michael is contributing. If he were a rookie we surely would have asked ourselves if he has the capacity to advance. With Michael we know that he has.

Q: Formula One pundit - and former team owner - Eddie Jordan has predicted Schumacher will retire at the end of the season. What do you say?
RB: It is definitely not true. What sense would it make at that stage of his comeback to pack in his job? He’s not going to do it - be sure of that!

Q: Jordan also predicted that you and Mercedes will part ways…
RB: Of course I will retire one day, but I want to step down when I’m successful and not in a situation like I’m facing now. Right now I still have enough motivation to get up in the morning and go to work. And yes, there will come a day when I will hand over the team to someone else.

Q: Could Schumacher be that someone?
RB: I have never talked to him about such an option. He is a very intelligent man with a balanced family life. I don’t know if he really wants to do that to himself. As team principal you don’t get the same adrenalin rush as when you are driving a car. What you get is a 10 to 12-hour working day and I am not sure if that would satisfy or motivate him.

Q: How do you respond to the rumours about friction between Mercedes and yourself?
RB: It’s sad that such rumours always get around. But let’s be clear - none of us are happy with the performance this year, and of course Mercedes want to know how and when we will improve. But nobody needs to tell me that it is important to win. And probably we can still improve the relationship between Brackley and the Mercedes engine factory, but Mercedes is very open to all suggestions. So at the moment there are no problems whatsoever. They will come if we are not able to improve in the future.

Q: So could it be that you and Schumacher will walk happily into the sunset next season?
RB: Next year would probably be too early. I like this team. We have gone through many things together. I would never leave the team in an unclear situation. But I also don’t want to do this job when I am 65 years-old. Bernie Ecclestone set the benchmark very high, true, but I don’t think that I am as highly productive as he is!

TwentySix

Loved that, it was so unexpected

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mp37Rl2J_fg

And this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=giZu7-A2yS0&NR=1

A.Wayne

Yes Ross................

Is there anyone here ( apart from Pete) who thinks a super license F1 driver , with all the technology in the world, (simulations and telemetry) available to him takes 1 yr to adjust to his tires .......



Mercedes denies management friction

By Jonathan Noble Tuesday, September 28th 2010, 14:10 GMT

Mercedes GP chiefs have dismissed talk that the team's fortunes are being hit by damaging friction at management level - as the outfit knuckles down to get itself back to the front in F1.

Rumours in the build-up to the Singapore Grand Prix suggested that team principal Ross Brawn and Mercedes-Benz motorsport boss Norbert Haug were at loggerheads over the future direction of the team.

The speculation gained further momentum when Nico Rosberg suggested that the team needed to make 'changes' to recover the ground lost this year.

But team principal Brawn has rubbished the rumours – and says that the only way that Mercedes GP can return to winning ways is if the team sticks together and agrees wholly on where it is heading.

"My experience is that you have a philosophy or an approach to do the job, and you follow that philosophy, you follow that approach and you hope that brings the results," said Brawn, when asked by AUTOSPORT about the team situation.

"So I have a philosophy and culture within the company of encouraging everyone, helping them understand where we are not strong enough, helping them understand where we are not strong enough and understand where we have to be better.

"And if there are any gaping holes, then we have to fill them – but I don't think there are any major gaping holes. Obviously the majority here are people who won the championship last year, but it is an ever-evolving business. If you don't improve your organisation as well as improve your car then you will fall behind."

Brawn says that the team is still suffering the growing pains that came out of its troubled transition from Honda to Brawn GP to Mercedes GP – but he felt that the team was now on the path to get the most out of its new owners.

"I think for sure we are now in a much better position in terms of building a company for the future," he said. "Last year was a fairy story but this time last year we had probably just started getting an inkling that we didn't know where we would be. We didn't know what the future held.

"You have probably seen that we had quite good trading figures last year, but they were to give us the money to run this year if we didn't get the partnerships we needed. But luckily we got the partnerships we needed.

"We didn't know this time last year where we were going to be. We do know now and we are taking advantage of those opportunities to build the strongest team we can for the future.

"That means finding all the opportunities we can have within Daimler, as well as just the racing team. Daimler has got a fantastic portfolio library of technology that we need to tap into – and we have started that process now. And that is really exciting for me because I have seen many times in the past that if you manage that, then it is a real asset to the company."

Speaking about his relationship with Haug, Brawn said: "There is no problem between Norbert and me. We are both unhappy about the results. We show occasionally, but we both work together – and we are going to make this thing succeed.

"And only together can we have success. I don't love everyone in my team but I work professionally – and that's not to say that I don't love Norbert.

"We have known each other a very long time but things are not quite right yet and we are all building together to put the structure and organisation in place that we want for the future. And when you get that ball rolling, when you get it working, then it is very powerful."

Haug echoed Brawn's feelings on the situation – and said that Mercedes-Benz should be given some credit for having stuck with its F1 programme during difficult times while manufacturers like BMW and Toyota had turned their backs on the sport.

"It [last year] was a difficult period of time for this team, being very successful on the one side but not knowing what the future would bring. For us also, being in the middle of a very tough automobile crisis like never before.

"You saw other manufacturers chose to stop their involvement in F1, and I think it is very positive that Mercedes is committed for the future. We have a great team, great assets and it was a win-win situation. It is not yet a win situation on the race track but we will do that and I am absolutely sure of it.

"We trust absolutely in Ross and the technical team, and if rumours like that come up I can understand them in the way, but we are not Hollywood stars embracing each other in the paddock and playing games. Maybe sometimes you think we looked stressed or whatever, but we know how it feels to win and sometimes probably are a little bit concentrated or grumpy or whatever. But this is real life and I think we work together in an excellent way in all the areas. And of course it is a learning process for all of us."

Haug also played down talk that Mercedes GP's failure to win a race this season had led to increased pressure from board members in Stuttgart.

"This talk of tough-like pressure from Stuttgart, this is just ridiculous. We make our pressure; this is home made pressure in the team. There are not board members in Stuttgart telling us to do this and this and this. They are very well informed, and if they would not have been informed it would not have been the basis to go forward when other people stopped, other manufacturers stopped.

"We accelerated in a way. We did not waste our money but spent it in an absolute remarkable positive way and that is it."

He added: "That rumours are coming out is normal. We heard rumours about Michael [Schumacher], we heard rumours about us. I think it is fair to ask the question and you know that Ross is even longer in the business and I think there is one rule – if we say yes is it yes, if we say no it is no and if we say no comment then you can speculate. The clear answer: no there are no frictions. But yes we want to do a better job in the future."

enduro911

Hey if FA can make it work, that’s fine with me…style points are only good for so much. That said, he’s changed because his career has extended through the transition from TC to non-TC cars, changes in the amounts of downforce on the cars, and now from grooved to slick tires. Schumacher made that opposite transition (slicks to grooved) at one point without any major issues. The point is that if you jump into a car that’s been through multiple changes and you try to take the same approach as you did when you stopped racing, that’s probably not going to work, at least not right away. But see my post which poses the question how much time is really enough?

You skipped over the part where Schumacher never got a chance to use the F399 in anger (hell even Irvine almost too the title thanks to Ferrari reliability) and the fact that the F1-2000 was only on par aerodynamically with the exploda-Maccas, which I think still had more grunt and high speed grip. Oh, and then in 94 when Schumacher had the better car in the first half of the season, but then were definitely at the mercy of Newey’s rebuild in the second.

C’mon, the Kesha eyeroll attitude isn’t necessary, is it? Schumacher won a lot of races in the wet, IMO partly because skill, and also in large part due to his decision to work with Ross Brawn every step of the way. Michael was taken out by Fisi as I remember, and Barichello went on as you mentioned to drive superbly.

Schumacher’s “special treatment” was that his driving style dictated the way they set up the cars, despite Rubens’ style being drastically different. Get the wet setup wrong and it can compound the difference in speed even more so than in the dry. So the question becomes why not have Rubens set up his own car, etc, etc.

Because Schumacher was the #1 in the team, plain and simple. Why? IMO it was because he worked with the same two guys (Brawn/Byrne) before, got good results, and Rubens didn’t get any before he came to Ferrari.

Is that perfectly fair? Nope, but when Rubens joined Honda with Brawn and was faster than Button in a bad car (08), why would, as you claim, Ross favor Button of Barichello? He had seen both driver’s performances, and he got the opportunity to witness some races where Rubens absolutely dominated in a Ferrari. IMO it’s because he’s fast, but because it’s easier for him to adjust to a Button/Schumacher style rather than vice versa. Run what you brung…remember?

4th best earlier in the season, now probably more like 5th best behind RB, Ferrari, Mac, and Renault.

All 3 know how to drive a bad car well, which isn’t an necessity if you can hook yourself up with the best team. I can rattle off numerous WC’s who couldn’t drive a bad car well but took at least one title when they did have a good car under them. That said, I think Michael can drive a bad car well, just not a bad car that is bad because it understeers. A loose car with no grip? Yeah, I’m inclined to think he could. Nico places a lot of emphasis on mid-corner speed. Mid-corner speed means the need for stability and predictability. Michael demands a sharp turn in and the ability to manipulate the car mid corner using the throttle and brake at the same time. Doesn’t sound like the car, assuming like you’d say, that Ross is telling the truth about it understeering, it would make sense that he’s struggling. But, as you say, run whatcha brung.

enduro911

Larry, this is no time for logic! We’re debating the “best” here!!!!

Finn, Gilles is one of my favorites too. Car control like you can’t believe! I wonder if Gilles would have ever taken a step back and decided to control himself to some degree, not be so hard on the equipment, take fewer risks because I don’t doubt that it could have brought him at least one title given the chance.

Really? The F300 (the car Michael's driving) was much improved from the mediocre car that he drove the year before. That said, the MP4-13 was a masterpiece. It had HUGE horsepower for the time thanks to Ilmor's very clever use of berellium, and as was said, Ferrari stripped the car out for straight line speed to give Michael a chance pass Mika on the straights at a track where that's possible. The reason they didn't actually put any downforce on it is because it would probably be .3-.5 seconds a lap slower. Mclaren had the better tire that year (Bridgestone vs Ferrari's Goodyears) and Mclaren have, until 09, always had great mechanical grip in addition to having more aero grip (an advantage that continued through 99), particularly in high speed corners. On top of that, you have all the extra HP which would probably put Mika on par with Michael in terms of acceleration even if Mika was running more wing. That's a losing battle and Michael's compounded it by making a mistake. There was no catching the MP4-13 that year.

ltc

In that case, I would like to present to the members of the court the infamous pass of Alonso by Takuma Sato

A.Wayne

Really?

He was 6/10 a lap faster than Hakkinen watch the video and Todt prevented Irvine from winning the WDC, to protect Schumacher....

multi21

Yo, stop with the facts. It doesn't fit into A. Wayne's World. It's the world according to his spin. Rennlist should really charge Wayne extra for all the replies/bandwidth his posts take up.

I didn't want to bring up that Schumi got taken out by Fisi in Germany 2000, but suffice to say that the Man in the Kilt running across the track would have been enough to trigger the memory if not the rain. But thank you.

Ladies and Gentlemen, I will fight fire with fire from now on. Every arguement brought up by A. Wayne, I will counter with even more destructive evidence against his pissing boy F. Alonso.

Let's start with Teammates:

Was Rubens sometimes faster than MS, yes. But I ask to the people on the jury, "Is it better to be beaten by your teammate Rubens B. or your teammate Fisichella?" Alonso was beaten on more than one occasion by Fisi, which I find unacceptable. How about Trulli? Yup, ALonso beaten by Jarno Trulli.

Passes:

Ladies and Gentlemen of the Jury, "Is it better to be passed by Mika in a McLaren or Montoya in a BMW or Takuma Sato in a lowly Honda while you are in a McLaren?" ALONSO WAS OUTBRAKED FROM THE OUTSIDE WHILE SATO WAS BEHIND THE MCLAREN!!!! BTW, no damage was done to any car by Sato during this piece.

Exibit #1:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRJwZu5Qqio