mark kibort

Bryan you are funny. 2 seconds? Really, and the proof you have is someone putting some aero on a their car and its 2 seconds faster? How do you explain cars that lose splitters and even wings and still keep near on pace with totally unbalanced cars? again, i think there are tracks that pay huge dividends for great aero, and the gains are all over the map for differnent types of cars. just saying 2 seconds is pretty stupid. track, driver, car, etc, all will determine the degree of gain. Pull the aero off bobs car, that day and I bet he is only 1 seconds slower, and thats my guess, and depending on the track, it might be a handful.

Yes, bryan, I was drving against Randy racing a car about $80k worth more than mine, (with instructions to make sure he beat me.) he had a slight advantage due to being on brand new hoosiers, while I was on very used toyos. Now, proof, was in the times, not in the "mind of bryan" 1:37s for him (inline for a car that does this with other top drivers at laguna , in a top GS Koni car) and 1:38s for me. same HP /weight. (315rwhp/3000bs with driver) you be the judge. what I dont think I could have kept up with the aero straightened out, as it was the first time on the track with a REAL wing. it made it push so bad, but it was still faster than I had ever gone there.

Now you are refering to drag losses neting lower lap times? well, if you think about 5hp is worth lower lap times , you might be right. remember, most good wings at speed put down 200+lbs of downforce, thats only 50lbs of drag, and to the rear wheels, less than 5hp. you need a lot more information to determine if aero is helping or hurting and to what degree.

Let me point out something to YOU. You say downforce, equals grip, and I totally agree. How much? well, you tell me. what matrix are you using to judge. Simply, what are the gains in speed, per curve, approach, (over time) minus those small drag consessions? plug it in , let me know what you find for the track and car in question. (at laguna the time gains might be totally differnent than a track like road america or willow springs. )

Edit: One other thing that comes to mind are ALL the times anyone has been 1-2 seconds faster on any given day, 1-2 seconds faster, with things like a lighter wheel, or tire or one with a different diameter. . (which can be proved to discount any gains of that magnatude, pretty easily). I remember doing dyno runs of the eRAM and getting 8-10hp gains on a 911, and then when we went to sears point, and the driver came in and said how he could REALLY feel the difference, under WOT, and I then told him I disconnected it that session, expecting that reaction. upon re-hook up, there was really no difference. 8-10hp is very hard to feel, let alone see in lap times unless you are an experienced track'er.

onefastviking

So are you discrediting the eRAM electric supercharger now ?

Larry Herman

Does anyone else have a problem with this? Bob has run Thunderbolt many times, has lots of data on it, and with the aero upgrade (same sized tires) runs 2 seconds faster, according to the data. I recon that this information just does not stand up to Mark's EDUCATED GUESS.

bobt993

Brian, Your spot on as usual. I had Chris Cervelli help me with the setup, so that is a big gain in itself. He also adjusted my driving style to be more concerned with entry speed and rolling the car through mid-corner. This of course let the wing and other items he suggested really work. My straight line speed is the same because of running wider (spacers in the rear and RSR wheel width in the front). I ran old tires on narrow rims from last year. I also received input from Clay (Claykos), Tom (the turtle), and Jack Olsen. Larry has been working on the suspension with me also.

The data points to faster entry, apex, and exit speed in every corner especially faster corners of 80mph. This was apparent after only two 20min test sessions and a slight adjustment on the Motons. I expect the whole package with wider tires is worth more on the range of 3 secs per lap on most of the tracks I race at.

Mark, this is all fictional of course. None of this actually happened and no one needs to change their current setup in GTS3.

Larry Herman

North Coast Cab

I thought it was a good article, sort of aero for beginners. However, just like your suspension, if you do not properly research, test and refine it will be of little value.

Lemming

Bob,

What about straight line speed on a very long straight? I lost about 5 mph on the back straight of Road Atlanta after adding aero to my car, likely because coming out of T7 is slow. However, that's the only straight that I can see where I'm down on top speed since, like you, I'm carrying more speed through most corners (T1, esses, T6, and T12).

930man

with the right areo I could guarantee it is possible to drop two seconds on a lap... some cars are true pigs with out areo ... some areo is to much for top end... but i dont understand why people immediately say things as fact with out know all the info....

this is a learning tool place,

mark kibort

larry, get of your high horse for a second. I have NO idea what thunderbolt is like as a track, and bob and his car are as a driver/equip package. If chris was there to help and he says its true, I tend to believe it. At tracks that we see here on the west, aside from willow, aero doesnt help as much. Laguna has VERY few turns over 70mph, how ever the main straight braking point could be helped.

More often than not, aero doesnt help to this extent, especially the first time. (without access to a wind tunnel. ) usually, you first end up with some kind of nasty unbalance, but corrected, no doubt, it can help. how much, well that depends.

mark kibort

So, chris helping with your driving wasnt worth anything. Or, are you saying that without the aero , him helping with your driving wouldnt have helped at all. In athletic performance tests, its amazing what folks can do when a respected coach is watching. everything seems to get better. If you want to believe, all the gains were due to the aero, thats fine. lets see the data, if you have any. If not, lets just say you were faster that day due to a few factors, OK, no need to be an *** about it. I thought this was a discussion board. .

mark kibort

No, discrediting most folks that think that their butt dyno is accurate. Ive been able to fool more than a few people in this area.

mk

930man

never mind I see the problem... ... I am just clueless why waste my breath!

bobt993

Ah, No Mark. Chris and have worked on several occasions, but prior to this event. He has driven the car and the track. These improvements were his suggestion when I asked him if I should have him go over the engine before this year. My current engine is completely stock and from a LA Dismantlers junkyard smog machine. The engine has been fine, just down on power and top end. No leaks. Chris was very honest and said you could gain maybe a second with engine work and a big money expense (which would be in his pocket). Keep in mind the car must dyno to meet class rules. Chris said I could invest a fraction in aero and widen the track with easily 2 secs off my time at Tbolt. I ran the fall race there and finished 2nd out of 15 cars in class so this is not a revelation in my driving level. Ironically the car in front of me was a 993 with the aero package I was looking at. I still have not run bigger tires, just what was left over in the garage from 09. I will go out on a limb and bet that I pick up closer to 3secs once the car is fine tuned and running on wider tires.

John H

Aero on my former 911 track car made a huge difference. I ran the higher downforce set up for two sessions at Watkins Glen and while my corner speed through the bus stop and carousel was awesome, I felt like I had a parachute behind me on the longer straights. Reset the rear wing angle and swapped out front splitter and BAM, back to racing with the guys in my class.

It does make a difference, especially when it is wrong.

cgomez

I also have some data of back to back testing/racing with and with/out wing. Same driver, same car, same conditions. In a 2min lap the difference is 2secs + despite having lower top speed (more drag) with the wing up. At LimeRock the difference is around 1sec (59.5 vs 58.5)

At a track like Road Atlanta (just ran this weekend) the difference was 1.2 secs "only" but I know I took a LOT more risk with my recent lap without the Wing. The Winged lap in December was my first time at RATL at a long 9hr Enduro, so with fresh tires and time in between sessions to digest the telemetry should have gone faster than the 1:34.9 (vs. 1:36.1 in h Stock wingless trim).

What would you guess the difference is at a Track like Daytona? Despite the long flatout Nascar section, the Wing helps a LOT in the busstop, braking stability into T1 and some in the infield. That accounts for a 2secs difference in my car! (I credit Larry for replying to me that I would be better off with the Wing)

I agree that is harder to get that ultimate limit laptime with downforce, and you end up working your tires harder in a race, so the avg. laptime difference might be smaller.