jcb-memphis

So. DE guidelines for PCA allow the Schroth Rallye 3/4/auto solution for BMW's and such because their seats have a place for the belts to go and Porsche seats do not as a rule.


I now have slot containing seats (GT3 996 variant).

Here are some data:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CS6wof_d1_8


Is it reasonable to think that I could use the 4pt Schroth rallye 3/rallye 4/auto solution with my car. I frankly think they are safe in said situation. Schroth have tested them and they are DOT...

Sure, I'd like a 6 pt, but I put kids all the time and I don't want to put a cage in the car on ths street.

Thanks!

Jeff

Driver8

Here is PCA Nationals take on belts.

Harness Systems: If the participant chooses to install a 5- or 6-point driving harness several changes to the automobile must be made to create a safe occupant restraint system. Harnesses must include a antisubmarine strap and be mounted in an approved manner consistent the manufacturer’s instructions. The Harness system must be used in conjunction with a seat which has the supplied routing holes for the shoulder and antisubmarine belts. All pieces of the restraint system must be installed in accordance with the manufacturer’s instructions. This means that a seat is required to have the proper routing holes for the harness as supplied by the seat manufacturer for the shoulder and anti-submarine straps. The shoulder straps should be mounted at 90 degrees to the axis of your spine or at most 40 degrees down from horizontal. Because the addition of the harness system means that the occupants are fastened upright in the vehicle, a properly padded roll bar or roll cage is strongly encouraged to complete the SYSTEM. The use of one without the other may result in an unsafe environment and is not a COMPLETE SYSTEM. Due to UV degradation and wear the harness webbing must be replaced every five years.

Four point systems are not allowed in Porsches because of the integrated headrest supplied by the factory. In addition to the standard SFI and/ or FIA approved 5- and/or 6-point system, a 4-point system is allowed in non-Porsches that meet the following requirements:
- Meets the Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard 209.
- Attaches to the factory seat belt mounting points.
- Each belt is designed to work in a specific vehicle and that vehicle tag must be attached to the belt system.
An example of a system that meets the above criteria is the Schroth Quick Fit system.

jcb-memphis

That is exactly the data that initiated the question: I now have a Porsche with GT3 seats. If a stock BMW can use Schroth, I cannot see why I could not do so as well....DOT mount points, etc.
I assure you I read this...not trying to waste everyone's time.

Thanks!


Jeff

Driver8

Jeff the question that needs to be answered is, are the Schroth rallye belts "designed to work in a specific vehicle and that vehicle tag must be attached to the belt system". If it does then you might have a valid point to go to PCA with.

I would contact PCA directly and ask the question.

slvr993

It's probably best to check with the safety chair for your region. Thats who will ultimately have the say in your situation. Often times this has more to do with insurance / legal issues for the region and as such most regions tend to adhere to the national guidelines quite tightly.

Brey Kraus sells a harness truss for your car. This would allow the use of 5 or 6 point harnesses and is used quite frequently for DE since they bolt in and out very quickly and require no modification to the car.

http://www.bkauto.com/porsche/r1035.php

I had a different version in my 993 and loved it.

Jeff

slvr993

Here, check out the attached classified. You can at least see how this guy liked the BK set-up, and he's got a used one for sale for a 996.

https://rennlist.com/forums/for-sale...ff-4-sale.html

jcb-memphis

Thanks...will contact PCA and my safety chair directly.

The 996 is more than safe and is on the Schroth car list. The gt3 seat is safe....I am sure more so than the large number of Schorth folding seats. If I am allowed to use these seats with a 5pt/6pt etc., I cannot see how they would not be safe with the Schroth ASM system. I am not talking "quick fit" which is car specific. I am talking "rallye" which is NOT car specific because you bolt all the parts into the car. Nothing is merged with the 3pt native system. Thus, I think this is a valid, safe, insurable option.....the latter being the key statement. The auto actually looks amazing....3pt flex with the option to tie you back hard like a true harness.....amazing option in my mind. The waste states tight all the time....perfect in my mind. Just a bit pricey at 300/side. No, I don't "plan" to race...but I think for DE these are great.


jeff

RonCT

Don't know where my post went, but I posted a reply... The Schroth "quick fit" ASM is only made for BMW, Audi / VW, Mini, and Subaru. I had it in my previous 03 M3 and it connected to the OEM laps, so the pre-tensioners worked (which is what I understand made the ASM work). Check out the HMS website (Joe Marko), they are the US importer of Schroth. Lots of info there... I would think that unless Schroth designs / fits / tests these for Porsche, I wouldn't even try.

ApexPerformance

Schroth makes a non-vehicle specific 4-point belt called the Profi II ASM - it's a 4-point harness with the ASM shoulders.

Schroth ASM harnesses requires a seat with harness slots or an ajdustable headrest for the shoulder straps to run through. If you have a seat with an integrated headrest, the shoulder belts can fall off your shoulders in an accident. Since you have the GT3 seats, you have the shoulder slots. When we were members of Allegheny Region, they did not permit Schroth ASM harnesses for track events; however, they amended their rules to accept them after they realized they do work.

There's been talk from Schroth about making Porsche-specific ASM belts but don't know if that is still in the works.

I would definitely check with your location region safety chair to confirm what is allowed.

jcb-memphis

RonCT...I am not talking about the quickfits....but the other tuner belts (rallye 3/4/auto) and perhaps this new profi II ASM....but that is much like a tuner rallye 4...

Again, thanks guys. Schroth's issue is probably market size......if only Porsche had put slots in all their seatbacks....

Jeff

IamSMC

jcb: if you've gone so far as to attach the 4 points, why not just go all the way and add the 5 point?

All you need is the GT3 seat sub belt bar from Porsche or BK.

jcb-memphis

1. More affordable.
2. Less likely to damage the interior (each DE weekend it/out of a harness..even a BK).
3. How do I get my kids to the track in a car with a harness bar in their seats..they sit in the back...
4. It seems safe via testing. The 996 chassis is approved for use.

If I go 5 point, I really then need to go Hans, full cage...a "full" system. I see this as "super factory 3 pt".

Jeff

jcb-memphis

Update:

This is going to be addressed by PCA national.

I sent a ton of data and they responded. Super cool conversation with Pete.

I am NOT talking quick-fit or quick-fit pro. Those are car specific. I am talking rallye3/4 and autocontrol solutions.....see the German site. The 996 is approved for the belt system if seats that are appropriate are installed per the Schroth site in German if you dig a bit....they require a tested folding seat or fixed back buckets...key is slots to hold the belts on your shoulders.... Most people would not have thought of this....to be honest, I think it is safer than a 5/6 pt if you don't have a HANS type device. I'll just say that.

Anyway, thanks for the help everyone.


Jeff

krystar

this woulda been nice...

cause i had the Rallye4 non-car-specific mounted with a FIA carbon fiber bucket seat on a harness bar. I was allowed to drive on the one DE event by PCA tech, but they said not the next time. that's what forced me to get a rollbar and 6points.