Sway Bars
#31
Drifting
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Charlotte, NC
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Can't underestimate the importance of controlling roll on these front MacPherson struts. Lowering, while ultimately a good thing, actually increases the tendency towards roll on the front of the car due to the roll center dropping quicker than the COG. It's the opposite of what you're taught.
And as you go lower, you often get into a less optimal portion of the camber curve as well. Lots of spring, lots of bar, and lots of static camber is often the answer to producing grip on a MacPherson strut front suspension.
#32
Rennlist Member
Why is it that I know your toe settings and you don't??!!
Chris has zero front toe, and 1/16" rear toe in.
Interesting comments about actually tightnening the front sway to increase grip/reduce oversteer. I only have -1.9 up front after a ton of work... It's pitiful. I absolutely can't believe that people can get anywhere near -3.0 and still be legal.
Chris has zero front toe, and 1/16" rear toe in.
Interesting comments about actually tightnening the front sway to increase grip/reduce oversteer. I only have -1.9 up front after a ton of work... It's pitiful. I absolutely can't believe that people can get anywhere near -3.0 and still be legal.
#33
Mr. Excitement
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
All this talk about ARBs and no one has mentioned increasing spring rate rather than ARB? Just a shade tree hack here but I consider ARBs a tuning device not a control device. Is it not best to control body roll via spring rate? Using the ARBs to compensate for lack of spring rate leads to other complications.
crank the towers in using a strut brace and shave the hood.
crank the towers in using a strut brace and shave the hood.
#35
Drifting
Join Date: May 2003
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All this talk about ARBs and no one has mentioned increasing spring rate rather than ARB? Just a shade tree hack here but I consider ARBs a tuning device not a control device. Is it not best to control body roll via spring rate? Using the ARBs to compensate for lack of spring rate leads to other complications.
#37
Burning Brakes
Gary,
Why can't he go with a thicker front t-bar? I have heard that 26mm will fit in the A-arms. Thanks for the correction on scrut at the Glen. Aren't rumors great?
Why can't he go with a thicker front t-bar? I have heard that 26mm will fit in the A-arms. Thanks for the correction on scrut at the Glen. Aren't rumors great?
#39
Rennlist Member
With that little camber in the front, going stiffer on the front bars/springs may actually help with your understeer problem. Actually, I won't even say "may", I'll go ahead and guess that it WILL. You've got to manage the contact patch. If you have too much roll and not enough camber, your grip is going to suck. Going softer to solve the problem is only going to make it worse.
The "stiffer" = more understeer idea that you are taught is based on starting from a near optimal setup on a purpose built race car. You aren't anywhere close to that due to rules, budget, design, etc, etc. Stiffer does not always = less grip. If it did, we would go lower than the factory spring rates rather than much stiffer when going racing.
The "stiffer" = more understeer idea that you are taught is based on starting from a near optimal setup on a purpose built race car. You aren't anywhere close to that due to rules, budget, design, etc, etc. Stiffer does not always = less grip. If it did, we would go lower than the factory spring rates rather than much stiffer when going racing.
Why is it that I know your toe settings and you don't??!!
Chris has zero front toe, and 1/16" rear toe in.
Interesting comments about actually tightnening the front sway to increase grip/reduce oversteer. I only have -1.9 up front after a ton of work... It's pitiful. I absolutely can't believe that people can get anywhere near -3.0 and still be legal.
Chris has zero front toe, and 1/16" rear toe in.
Interesting comments about actually tightnening the front sway to increase grip/reduce oversteer. I only have -1.9 up front after a ton of work... It's pitiful. I absolutely can't believe that people can get anywhere near -3.0 and still be legal.
Don- sorry for the hijack.
#40
Rennlist Member
Don is talking about 26mm torsion bars. I've heard of 24s, but they weren't available at the time I was doing my suspension. The bigger the better, according to Larry Herman, who will hopefully chime in here at some point, and tell us how soft even the stiffest torsion bars are in terms of actual spring rate. I forget the numbers, but he has them.
#41
Rennlist
Basic Site Sponsor
Basic Site Sponsor
Don is talking about 26mm torsion bars. I've heard of 24s, but they weren't available at the time I was doing my suspension. The bigger the better, according to Larry Herman, who will hopefully chime in here at some point, and tell us how soft even the stiffest torsion bars are in terms of actual spring rate. I forget the numbers, but he has them.
__________________
Larry Herman
2016 Ford Transit Connect Titanium LWB
2018 Tesla Model 3 - Electricity can be fun!
Retired Club Racer & National PCA Instructor
Past Flames:
1994 RS America Club Racer
2004 GT3 Track Car
1984 911 Carrera Club Racer
1974 914/4 2.0 Track Car
CLICK HERE to see some of my ancient racing videos.
Larry Herman
2016 Ford Transit Connect Titanium LWB
2018 Tesla Model 3 - Electricity can be fun!
Retired Club Racer & National PCA Instructor
Past Flames:
1994 RS America Club Racer
2004 GT3 Track Car
1984 911 Carrera Club Racer
1974 914/4 2.0 Track Car
CLICK HERE to see some of my ancient racing videos.
#42
Rennlist Member
Chris, IIRC the 23 mm fronts equaled a coil spring rate of about 275 lbs/in and 31 mm rears equaled about 375. I felt that this was fairly close, but have 2 sources for you to check: Pelicanparts Forum and Rennlist Forum. They are not exactly the same, but do confirm that the torsion bar rates are pretty soft as compared to what you can get with coil-overs. Plus you can see yourself how much the torsion bar cars lean as compared to well-sprung C2s.
#44
Rennlist Member
Call Dan Jacobs if you want to know what to run, or if you know of someones LEGAL cars that have a better record than those prepared by him I would call them.... I'll be the first to admit the only thing limiting my car is ME...