Sway Bars
#16
Rennlist Member
I might have some used aftermarket sway bars too, I am moving and found a bunch of torsion bars (21 front, 27 and 29 rear) in my old garage but have not found the sways yet. Email me if you are looking for a deal.
#17
Rennlist Member
My front is as soft as it can go, and if I could, I would make it softer. It still understeers like crazy in tight turns. That's what I'm saying; why would I get larger bars when I can't even use the full potential of the smaller bars I already have?
#20
Burning Brakes
Chris,
From what I have read, the original 911 race cars did not even have a rear sway bar. As more and more people have raced and tested this platform, the consensus has become that bigger sway bars are needed to keep the body from rolling. This reduces the amount of camber lost under lateral G's. If you moved your rear sway bar to full tight, you would have to tighten your front one to maintain balance. Extrapolate that concept up several notches, and you end up with BF ARBs, nearly zero body roll, nearly zero camber loss, and a faster car through the corners. Again, you have to play with the settings to achieve your preferred balance.
I have my 22s up front at full stiff and rears at about 3/4 tight. I am guessing you hate understeer, and I don't like as much oversteer, even though my rear does come out quite often on acceleration out of a corner.
From what I have read, the original 911 race cars did not even have a rear sway bar. As more and more people have raced and tested this platform, the consensus has become that bigger sway bars are needed to keep the body from rolling. This reduces the amount of camber lost under lateral G's. If you moved your rear sway bar to full tight, you would have to tighten your front one to maintain balance. Extrapolate that concept up several notches, and you end up with BF ARBs, nearly zero body roll, nearly zero camber loss, and a faster car through the corners. Again, you have to play with the settings to achieve your preferred balance.
I have my 22s up front at full stiff and rears at about 3/4 tight. I am guessing you hate understeer, and I don't like as much oversteer, even though my rear does come out quite often on acceleration out of a corner.
#21
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#23
Rennlist Member
Sean, Gary, Don, et al...
I have not tried tightening the front or disconnecting it. One problem may be not enough camber. I don't have camber plates, and have less than -2 in front, no monoballs and
-2.5 in back. NO LSD either, so I don't get the back end out much since I can't get on the power too quick. I've only done one race with the non-original suspension, and I was happy with my lap times considering. I will work it out eventually.
But does my logic still hold true? If you can't use a smaller bar at its tightest setting, you don't need larger bars?
I have not tried tightening the front or disconnecting it. One problem may be not enough camber. I don't have camber plates, and have less than -2 in front, no monoballs and
-2.5 in back. NO LSD either, so I don't get the back end out much since I can't get on the power too quick. I've only done one race with the non-original suspension, and I was happy with my lap times considering. I will work it out eventually.
But does my logic still hold true? If you can't use a smaller bar at its tightest setting, you don't need larger bars?
#24
Burning Brakes
Chris,
Your camber is a piece of critical missing info. I gave -3.0 up front and -2.4 in the rear. I got 3.0 by doing surgery. I have only raced in NASA GTS 2 and I know that what I did is not legal in D-class. I also know that many in D-class have -3.0 up front and -2.7 rear, or there-abouts. My guess is they got it with the Smart Racing camber king and possible off-set ball joints. Several got gigged for it last year at the Glen (rumor - I was not there). I have heard I can get -2.7 in the rear by going to mono-***** for the semi-trailing arm. That is next.
So, back to your situation, I would imagine you would have a very difficult time getting oversteer with over 1/2 degree more camber up front than rear. With that setup, your sway bar settings sound more feasible.
Your camber is a piece of critical missing info. I gave -3.0 up front and -2.4 in the rear. I got 3.0 by doing surgery. I have only raced in NASA GTS 2 and I know that what I did is not legal in D-class. I also know that many in D-class have -3.0 up front and -2.7 rear, or there-abouts. My guess is they got it with the Smart Racing camber king and possible off-set ball joints. Several got gigged for it last year at the Glen (rumor - I was not there). I have heard I can get -2.7 in the rear by going to mono-***** for the semi-trailing arm. That is next.
So, back to your situation, I would imagine you would have a very difficult time getting oversteer with over 1/2 degree more camber up front than rear. With that setup, your sway bar settings sound more feasible.
#25
Rennlist Member
Makes sense, yes. I don't know what size SR sways we run off the top of my head, but our cars are all set up full soft in the rear and 1/2 to 3/4 soft in front. They are fairly large diameter bars...
#26
Rennlist Member
Chris,
Your camber is a piece of critical missing info. I gave -3.0 up front and -2.4 in the rear. I got 3.0 by doing surgery. I have only raced in NASA GTS 2 and I know that what I did is not legal in D-class. I also know that many in D-class have -3.0 up front and -2.7 rear, or there-abouts. My guess is they got it with the Smart Racing camber king and possible off-set ball joints. Several got gigged for it last year at the Glen (rumor - I was not there). I have heard I can get -2.7 in the rear by going to mono-***** for the semi-trailing arm. That is next.
So, back to your situation, I would imagine you would have a very difficult time getting oversteer with over 1/2 degree more camber up front than rear. With that setup, your sway bar settings sound more feasible.
Your camber is a piece of critical missing info. I gave -3.0 up front and -2.4 in the rear. I got 3.0 by doing surgery. I have only raced in NASA GTS 2 and I know that what I did is not legal in D-class. I also know that many in D-class have -3.0 up front and -2.7 rear, or there-abouts. My guess is they got it with the Smart Racing camber king and possible off-set ball joints. Several got gigged for it last year at the Glen (rumor - I was not there). I have heard I can get -2.7 in the rear by going to mono-***** for the semi-trailing arm. That is next.
So, back to your situation, I would imagine you would have a very difficult time getting oversteer with over 1/2 degree more camber up front than rear. With that setup, your sway bar settings sound more feasible.
-1.6 in the front, -2.6 in the rear, that's the most they could get. No "trickery", obviously.
#27
Rennlist Member
Chris,
Your camber is a piece of critical missing info. I gave -3.0 up front and -2.4 in the rear. I got 3.0 by doing surgery. I have only raced in NASA GTS 2 and I know that what I did is not legal in D-class. I also know that many in D-class have -3.0 up front and -2.7 rear, or there-abouts. My guess is they got it with the Smart Racing camber king and possible off-set ball joints. Several got gigged for it last year at the Glen (rumor - I was not there).
Your camber is a piece of critical missing info. I gave -3.0 up front and -2.4 in the rear. I got 3.0 by doing surgery. I have only raced in NASA GTS 2 and I know that what I did is not legal in D-class. I also know that many in D-class have -3.0 up front and -2.7 rear, or there-abouts. My guess is they got it with the Smart Racing camber king and possible off-set ball joints. Several got gigged for it last year at the Glen (rumor - I was not there).
#28
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Chris-
Do you have coil over suspension (sway bars are only one piece of the puzzle)? Your camber definitely needs to be increased. How much toe are you running?
Unless you are on a completely green track or one with REALLY big decreasing radius corners, I can't see why you would need to be running your front bar full soft...
Do you have coil over suspension (sway bars are only one piece of the puzzle)? Your camber definitely needs to be increased. How much toe are you running?
Unless you are on a completely green track or one with REALLY big decreasing radius corners, I can't see why you would need to be running your front bar full soft...
Last edited by PedroNole; 09-28-2009 at 12:32 AM.
#29
Rennlist Member
Chris-
Do you have coil over suspension (sway bars are only one piece of the puzzle)? Your camber definitely needs to be increased. How much toe are you running?
Unless you are on a completely green track or one with REALLY big decreasing radius corners, there's no way that you should be running your front bar full soft...
Do you have coil over suspension (sway bars are only one piece of the puzzle)? Your camber definitely needs to be increased. How much toe are you running?
Unless you are on a completely green track or one with REALLY big decreasing radius corners, there's no way that you should be running your front bar full soft...
23/33 torsion bars, 22/22 Weltmeister sways, custom valved Bilsteins, polygraphite bushings, aligned and corner-balanced. No monoballs, no camber plates, no decambered balljoints (legal?), no fancy bumpsteer kit (also illegal?). I do have the $13 steering rack spacer kit which is legal.
I think my toe is 1/16 IN, but I'd have to check to be sure. AFAIK, the only way to get more front camber is to go illegal...
#30
Drifting
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The "stiffer" = more understeer idea that you are taught is based on starting from a near optimal setup on a purpose built race car. You aren't anywhere close to that due to rules, budget, design, etc, etc. Stiffer does not always = less grip. If it did, we would go lower than the factory spring rates rather than much stiffer when going racing.