Darren

Give me a chance I'm working on that now.

95ONE

Just read every post.
Just to confirm, and hate away.. but
NASA.. GTS5.. Will have dyno showing 400.. (6:1 power weight max allowed. 2500 lbs with driver = 415 allowed hp) Turbo 944. 3.0 liter turbo'd 968 motor. Will Dyno right after race at 400hp. Its Capable of 600whp. The 200hp more can be had in the MoTeC programming.. under an auxillary switch labeled for something entirely different and not easily found even by someone familiar with the set up. Say a simple power steering pressure idle increase function. It would add whatever pulse widths I want to the boost control solenoid - from a seperate wire than the wastegate pulse width modulator.-to increase boost.. Wire wouldn't even be seen and tied in to boost solenoid in the part of the harness that is taped up! (see how sneaky) It can be as simple as a vacuum bleed hidden in the lines into the cockpit. It can be as visible as a boost controller with a high and low setting. it can be very complicated as described in the rules, like low boost if the front wheels dont move (As on a dyno) but once the fronts move, or move past a certain speed, high boost is activated. Things like that. But it's easy enough to change on the fly. in a huge amount of ways simple or complicated.

600 will probably pop my engine if left there for too long. And 400whp is insanely fast on this car at 2300lbs. (without driver) I only used the 400whp settting once at TWS. 350 was plenty for practice. But.. will anyone with a high boost option / switch be tempted.. You bet.. Even the "honest" ones If they feel someone else is cheating. Will someone who plans on cheating all the time give it all 600? hell no. (There are some who just don't care) But a 50hp boost, right at about 3lbs boost more would be sneaky enough to stay under the radar and the car will always pass before and after Dyno check. Not so easy for Naturally aspirated cars though. But yeah, cheating in NASA (or any other sanctioning body) should be a piece of cake.

Honestly.. with 410rwhp. 3liter torque from a boosted 10:1 compression ratio and a light *** car.. I think my hands will be very full at the legal level for a very long time. That said. How many races will i go to.. maybe 3! Ill be 90% DE's next year god willing. So I won't be caring about anyone cheating, and no worries about me, besides I'll be at the back of the pack. I promise in a very serious manner.

I wrote this in fear of creating more cheaters, but the guys that will do it, probably already are and will not care about my creative cheating solutions. I truly just want to enlighten the unaware.

Good thread..

Take Care,

Bruce.

95ONE

Ditto....

magnetic1

Bruce, I guess I'd only have a couple thoughts. Non disclosed switches or switch capabilities are grounds for auto-DQ. If found out, do you really want to be THAT guy?

Yes, you can always cheat, but when you run sucky laptimes and start blowing by people on the straights, someone is going to notice. And you don't want to be under the cheater spotlight. Our regional and national directors have reiterated the fact that anyone found blatantly cheating would be dismissed from NASA for good. Will that deter some people? Yes. Will it deter all people? Probably not.

We all race in close circles and the community is fairly small. You don't want to be going to races for the rest of your life with a cloud of suspicion hanging over ya.

Larry Herman

Actually, with a little bit of work, it would be easy to catch HP cheaters. A radar gun on the exit of the turn onto the longest straight with a split timer for that straight. That would clearly indicate who is getting down the straight "too fast".

Darren

Sure, measure the exit speed on the fastest straight and the max speed at the end.

Turbos are so easy for people to cheat with -- I wouldn't want to race one because of that, if you are any good people would always accuse you of cheating.

d15b7

hi.

NASA around here is talking about experimenting with some kind of device (i wish i could remember the name of it but i can't), but here is it's job -- to measure the approx hp of a car. it is installed in the car in question (it's small and portable) and is very similar to many of those off the shelf G meter/0-60 meter/performance computers that are currently available; it basically takes measurements while you are out on the racetrack of your acceleration during a race. it can then later be downloaded and along with the weight of your racecar an approximate whp can be determined.

i've heard some talk of it being tested on some of the classes in the upcoming year. if this tool can be properly implemented and it works, then it has a chance of catching someone with a car that accelerates too hard for it's weight.

i've heard of the problems that they are trying to overcome, too. (like hills, and sudden jarring bumps, and bumps from other cars making the numbers appear 'off'). i'm not sure how this is being remedied, but it sure would be great if a simple 'tell tale' could be put in any car, at any time, and the legality of the hp/wt could be verified/measured during an actual race (or series of races).

todd
ReidSpeed

jakermc

Thanks for the heads up and consider this as an introduction to your Texas Region GTS series director.

Maybe you we won't catch you cheating, but you can now be assured that life will be hell for you every time you go through tech. Also know that programable power systems must be declared and explained on the dyno certification sheet, failure to disclose is reason enough to be DQ'ed. The TX region of GTS runs clean and we intend to keep it that way.

Thus far all the drivers in the series feel that integrity is worth more than a plastic trophy. If the thought of cheating even enters your mind, this is not the right group of folks for you to run with.

FredC

nice!

wanna911

PWNED?............

Ed Newman

At the time, four years ago, they were not available. I believe there are at least two companies making them now.

BlueRiver86

In Koni it's just about out-cheating the other guy.

Darren

I'd be suprised if he actually plans to cheat after putting that much effort into the car. Try not to take posts after 2 am so seriously, usually beer is involved

The car looks very cool though, and that is certainly a way to build a car to the limit of the rules. Just Hp/weight? Ok tube frame 944.

BrandonH

But PCA already has 'blank checkbook' racing! PCA's GT classes are the closest thing to Formula Libre in the world! Build a tube frame Sports racer chassis inside a 914-6 tub, build a 1000HP engine using Porsche case halves, and bingo you've re-invented a Can Am car, except this time with the benefit of 30 more years of aerodynamics knowledge!

My opinion on the other stuff?
PCA is the clubbiest of club racing formats: essentially no real tech, no trophies, no championships either regional or national. It's about folks with Porsches getting together to race them. If you care deeply about how you stack up against other drivers and teams, then you are in the wrong series: join a spec class or an arrive and drive race series.

SundayDriver

Cheating a dyno is insanely easy. The first time I encountered it was in the early emission controls days. One of the Big 3 engineers realized that those tests were preformed on a dyno, with a large fan in front of the car and hood up. Well, they have a switch on the hood that changed the emissions calibration when the hood was up. And that was before any serious electronic controls.

But that gives a big hint on ways you could cheat on the dyno. Drop boost if a turbo car, otherwise change spark, fuel or even redline. How are you going to figure out, on the dyno, that my engine, which hits the rev limiter at 6500 rpm will really rev to 8500 and continue to make more power?

Who needs a switch if you have electronic engine controls. Just program in the power reduction feature. You could use the fact the car does not make any lat g's on the dyno, so if you don't see at least 0.5 lat g's for a minute, then power is reduced. Or call it traction control (assuming that is legal in NASA or wherever). Let's see, the rear tire is going like mad but the front tire is not spinning. The delta is large so let's turn on traction control. But instead of fully cutting throttle, as is more typical, let's just limit the HP by a bunch.

That last one is in the gray area if TC is allowed. It will help control wheel spin but it will also cheat the dyno. Don't get me wrong - it is way outside the intent of the rules, but the rules cannot effectively regulate intent, only implementation.

I could go on and on with ideas, but I think you guys get the point. Most club groups do not have people cheating to this level, but it is coming as it gets easier and easier. Note that the series that really deal with this for bigger $ teams and those that have been around much longer don't try to regulate HP. If they want to control the engine, they write rules to control it. Or use an SIR to limit air intake - that does a pretty darn good job of limiting power AND you can visually see if anything is in line to bypass it - it isn't in software.