Is there "etiquette" when posting vids of a crash you are not involved in??
05-25-2009, 08:23 PM
#61
Race Director
Tom
Major bummer.......the good news is nobody got hurt....we can always fix cars...people aren't so easy!
Its easy to toss blame around...but you did the right thing by stepping up and offering to help out with the repair cost of the Ferrari (bummer it wasn't a miata huh, could buy a whole car for the price of 1 ferrari wheel).....
Granted I don't race yet...but I have no doubts that "red mist" will effect judgement to a much greater degree than in the TT-DE setting I'm in now! I must say I'm glad I don't see any Ferraris in the class I'm looking into racing!!
Major bummer.......the good news is nobody got hurt....we can always fix cars...people aren't so easy!
Its easy to toss blame around...but you did the right thing by stepping up and offering to help out with the repair cost of the Ferrari (bummer it wasn't a miata huh, could buy a whole car for the price of 1 ferrari wheel).....
Granted I don't race yet...but I have no doubts that "red mist" will effect judgement to a much greater degree than in the TT-DE setting I'm in now! I must say I'm glad I don't see any Ferraris in the class I'm looking into racing!!
05-25-2009, 10:24 PM
#62
Race Director
So yes the Ferrari should have seen Tom, but given the what I saw in video I completely understand why he did not and clearly his line was one of not seeing the faster car. Remember the car in back has a much better view of what is infront than the car infront. So it is easy to get lost in the mirrors. That is why the overtaking car is expected to make a safe pass. Now had these two cars been "racing" for a few corners then the Ferrari would have known he was there and all would have been different.
BTW... A racer of a fast car should never expect some much slower car to see them every time. You can get missed and I have 7 years of racing with over 100 races and it can happen that you lose a fast car behind you. Blue flags help, but can't aways solve the issues. Point is a much faster car has the edge and can pick and chose passing spots to some degree. Use this to your advantage and don't make low risk passes. Heck had Tom been in an LMP1 car and the Ferrari a 430 GT the with same video it would still have been the issue of the faster car.
Now I say this not berate Tom. He realized his error and is man enough to do something about it. I doubt it will ever happen again. However you also need to look at the situation at hand and realize what was going on both in the last 20 yards of the corner and in the context of the race.
05-25-2009, 10:34 PM
#63
Race Director
You are welcome. The thing I want to see the most in fellow racers is a good attitude. One that realizes that racing is for fun and is willing to learn from mistakes. Certainly we have all made mistakes and will continue to make them. How we handle the after is more important the mistake. To a certain extent racing is very trial and error. You go and try something on track and see if it works. Sometimes it is great sucess and other times... well you walk back with your tail between your legs. It happens... Learn from it and move on!
05-25-2009, 11:50 PM
#64
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You need to understand what was happening during the race to see. It looks Tom got stuck in mid pack for qualfying. As such he was a faster car in pack of slower cars. Each of the slower cars is racing for position and on lap 1 you simply do not expect to see a faster slicing throuhg. A few laps in for sure, but early on? No. Then you realize that the silver Ferrari was looking only at the black on behind him. 95% of the time on lap 1 the only car you need to watch is the one right on you. You simply don't expect a car appraching you 30 mph faster than you.
So yes the Ferrari should have seen Tom, but given the what I saw in video I completely understand why he did not and clearly his line was one of not seeing the faster car. Remember the car in back has a much better view of what is infront than the car infront. So it is easy to get lost in the mirrors. That is why the overtaking car is expected to make a safe pass. Now had these two cars been "racing" for a few corners then the Ferrari would have known he was there and all would have been different.
BTW... A racer of a fast car should never expect some much slower car to see them every time. You can get missed and I have 7 years of racing with over 100 races and it can happen that you lose a fast car behind you. Blue flags help, but can't aways solve the issues. Point is a much faster car has the edge and can pick and chose passing spots to some degree. Use this to your advantage and don't make low risk passes. Heck had Tom been in an LMP1 car and the Ferrari a 430 GT the with same video it would still have been the issue of the faster car.
Now I say this not berate Tom. He realized his error and is man enough to do something about it. I doubt it will ever happen again. However you also need to look at the situation at hand and realize what was going on both in the last 20 yards of the corner and in the context of the race.
So yes the Ferrari should have seen Tom, but given the what I saw in video I completely understand why he did not and clearly his line was one of not seeing the faster car. Remember the car in back has a much better view of what is infront than the car infront. So it is easy to get lost in the mirrors. That is why the overtaking car is expected to make a safe pass. Now had these two cars been "racing" for a few corners then the Ferrari would have known he was there and all would have been different.
BTW... A racer of a fast car should never expect some much slower car to see them every time. You can get missed and I have 7 years of racing with over 100 races and it can happen that you lose a fast car behind you. Blue flags help, but can't aways solve the issues. Point is a much faster car has the edge and can pick and chose passing spots to some degree. Use this to your advantage and don't make low risk passes. Heck had Tom been in an LMP1 car and the Ferrari a 430 GT the with same video it would still have been the issue of the faster car.
Now I say this not berate Tom. He realized his error and is man enough to do something about it. I doubt it will ever happen again. However you also need to look at the situation at hand and realize what was going on both in the last 20 yards of the corner and in the context of the race.
in some of my races, different classes of cars are grouped by class, not by qual time. in my case, my slower car would be almost mid pack of the faster class car. since i dont have the hp, i need to and will jump on them as soon as the green flag drops and often get them by T2, else i will not have any chance.
that's not to say the slower class car must make room to allow fast cars to go by, i am just saying everyone need to watch everything. not always possible, but i sure try.
by lap 5-6, my class will be lapped by much faster cars. they can be a full straight behind me and by the next apex they will be door to door. as a slower car, i need to realize their closing speed and i would leave the apex just wide enough for them to sneak by.
the ferrari should look at qual times, learn a bit about who he's drivig with and if there are anyone who's faster but qual'd behind him. these "spying" are part of the strategy. i learned b/c i got sandbagged. when a 500hp viper qual'd behind my 200hp car, i know i didn't beat him. he should blow by me blind folded. so i was watching when and where he will get pass me..
05-26-2009, 10:55 AM
#66
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Tom, you're famous: http://www.examiner.com/x-4824-Tampa...ari-at-Sebring
(Sorry if it's a repost... I didn't look through the whole thread.)
(Sorry if it's a repost... I didn't look through the whole thread.)
05-26-2009, 11:12 AM
#67
Race Director
Yes every car should see every other car. However context is very important as just because drivers should see each other does not mean they always do.
My simple point is that given the circumstances of this incident expecting the sliver Ferrari to see the yellow 911 is big gamble. Yes they should see you, but when they don't you see clearly what happens and who is "at fault".
Really guys if you are a faster car passing from way back you can't expect to be seen every in single case. There are times you will get lost and driver in front will not see you. You can argue from here to next week about he should have seen you, but there are three simple facts that work against you.
1) Your car is wrecked so your fault or not you need to fix the car - That is no fun.
2) You are the passing car and there is always a responsiblity of the passing car to make a safe pass since the passing car always has a better view. Even if you are faster traffic lapping a slower car the passing car needs to make a safe pass and as such you need to "present" yourself to the other car.
3) If you are so much faster that you can come from out of nowhere to pass a car then you are also fast enough to pass probably any place. So why risk a pass where the other guy may not see you? It not like it is your only shot and you need to roll the dice. No wait until the pass is much cleaner so that you are not in spot where the other guy has to see you to make it work. Again don't put yourself in a spot where the other guy has to be a perfect pro level driver aware of everything. Wait and pass him 20 yards later.
My simple point is that given the circumstances of this incident expecting the sliver Ferrari to see the yellow 911 is big gamble. Yes they should see you, but when they don't you see clearly what happens and who is "at fault".
Really guys if you are a faster car passing from way back you can't expect to be seen every in single case. There are times you will get lost and driver in front will not see you. You can argue from here to next week about he should have seen you, but there are three simple facts that work against you.
1) Your car is wrecked so your fault or not you need to fix the car - That is no fun.
2) You are the passing car and there is always a responsiblity of the passing car to make a safe pass since the passing car always has a better view. Even if you are faster traffic lapping a slower car the passing car needs to make a safe pass and as such you need to "present" yourself to the other car.
3) If you are so much faster that you can come from out of nowhere to pass a car then you are also fast enough to pass probably any place. So why risk a pass where the other guy may not see you? It not like it is your only shot and you need to roll the dice. No wait until the pass is much cleaner so that you are not in spot where the other guy has to see you to make it work. Again don't put yourself in a spot where the other guy has to be a perfect pro level driver aware of everything. Wait and pass him 20 yards later.
05-26-2009, 12:43 PM
#68
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Tom, you're famous: http://www.examiner.com/x-4824-Tampa...ari-at-Sebring
(Sorry if it's a repost... I didn't look through the whole thread.)
(Sorry if it's a repost... I didn't look through the whole thread.)
thanks
05-26-2009, 01:14 PM
#69
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Yes every car should see every other car. However context is very important as just because drivers should see each other does not mean they always do.
My simple point is that given the circumstances of this incident expecting the sliver Ferrari to see the yellow 911 is big gamble. Yes they should see you, but when they don't you see clearly what happens and who is "at fault".
Really guys if you are a faster car passing from way back you can't expect to be seen every in single case. There are times you will get lost and driver in front will not see you. You can argue from here to next week about he should have seen you, but there are three simple facts that work against you.
1) Your car is wrecked so your fault or not you need to fix the car - That is no fun.
2) You are the passing car and there is always a responsiblity of the passing car to make a safe pass since the passing car always has a better view. Even if you are faster traffic lapping a slower car the passing car needs to make a safe pass and as such you need to "present" yourself to the other car.
3) If you are so much faster that you can come from out of nowhere to pass a car then you are also fast enough to pass probably any place. So why risk a pass where the other guy may not see you? It not like it is your only shot and you need to roll the dice. No wait until the pass is much cleaner so that you are not in spot where the other guy has to see you to make it work. Again don't put yourself in a spot where the other guy has to be a perfect pro level driver aware of everything. Wait and pass him 20 yards later.
My simple point is that given the circumstances of this incident expecting the sliver Ferrari to see the yellow 911 is big gamble. Yes they should see you, but when they don't you see clearly what happens and who is "at fault".
Really guys if you are a faster car passing from way back you can't expect to be seen every in single case. There are times you will get lost and driver in front will not see you. You can argue from here to next week about he should have seen you, but there are three simple facts that work against you.
1) Your car is wrecked so your fault or not you need to fix the car - That is no fun.
2) You are the passing car and there is always a responsiblity of the passing car to make a safe pass since the passing car always has a better view. Even if you are faster traffic lapping a slower car the passing car needs to make a safe pass and as such you need to "present" yourself to the other car.
3) If you are so much faster that you can come from out of nowhere to pass a car then you are also fast enough to pass probably any place. So why risk a pass where the other guy may not see you? It not like it is your only shot and you need to roll the dice. No wait until the pass is much cleaner so that you are not in spot where the other guy has to see you to make it work. Again don't put yourself in a spot where the other guy has to be a perfect pro level driver aware of everything. Wait and pass him 20 yards later.
05-26-2009, 01:35 PM
#71
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CLICK HERE to see some of my ancient racing videos.
05-26-2009, 01:53 PM
#72
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Mooty does have a great point - I always checked the grid to see who had qualified behind me. Often there will be a few very fast cars that had an issue w/ qualifying or just didn't bother to go out. you can count on them flying up through the field in the first couple of corners, as they don't want to get caught behind slower cars (me).
05-26-2009, 02:16 PM
#73
Rennlist Member
Dr. Tom, your actions are most commendable, as we all seem to agree. I've been down this road too, and I've paid for other's damages as well. So now I'm wondering, what about an incident at Watkins Glen? They charge for guard rail damage there!
05-26-2009, 03:17 PM
#74
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
The above comments are good ones and ones I will think about OVER AND OVER
05-26-2009, 03:39 PM
#75
Rennlist Member
I havent read all the posts here, but watched the video. Very cool group of cars by the way. Such a shame you had the incident, but it does happen. I would bet dollars to donuts that you have heard enough about you learning from the experience. one car pass in that turn would have been enough!
I just got hit in similar fashion a couple of races ago and it really pissed me off, but I'm still talking and new friends with the new guy that hit me and he was sorry. Heck, as long as we all get better and dont repeat our mistakes, right. No need to push that hard in making low percentage moves in our type of racing. what is the prize money?
thanks for posting the video. good stuff. (until the contact)
The fact that you stepped up and offered to pay for the mistake, speaks a lot of the type of person you are. Certainly, you are not obligated, but in cases were there is clear fault, I think it should be offered. Someone that hit me in WCGT did the exact same thing, but he was a slower car, and paid for my wheel and I still finished the race near the same spot where I would have. I felt bad for him because his damage was more and most of all, he didnt finish his first pro race!
You are a gentleman! good for you.
what race group was that by the way??
mk
I just got hit in similar fashion a couple of races ago and it really pissed me off, but I'm still talking and new friends with the new guy that hit me and he was sorry. Heck, as long as we all get better and dont repeat our mistakes, right. No need to push that hard in making low percentage moves in our type of racing. what is the prize money?
thanks for posting the video. good stuff. (until the contact)
The fact that you stepped up and offered to pay for the mistake, speaks a lot of the type of person you are. Certainly, you are not obligated, but in cases were there is clear fault, I think it should be offered. Someone that hit me in WCGT did the exact same thing, but he was a slower car, and paid for my wheel and I still finished the race near the same spot where I would have. I felt bad for him because his damage was more and most of all, he didnt finish his first pro race!
You are a gentleman! good for you.
what race group was that by the way??
mk
ok I crashed in a race last weekend. I would call it a "racing" incident. It was at Sebring. I "tried" to pass two Ferrari's under heavy braking on the inside of turn 10. I almost made it but unfortunately I hit the rear of the front Ferrari.
I looked at my vid a million times and if I had to do it over I would not have tried the pass. It initially seemed to me I had the inside. however when beside the other car I thought he would stay to the outside of the corner and me the inside. however he turned in at the usual DE turn in point an tracked right to the apex, ah right were I was. he said he didnt see me and I said well I probably shouldnt have been there.
His rear wheel was cracked and minor cosmetic damage. he re-entered the race, won class and forth overall.
my cars front upright, radiatior, and tie rod broke so I was done.
after the race we were good he was quite the gentleman about it and I also told him I would in the spirit of sportsmenship buy him a new rear wheel.
he was very happy about that and I think all was good.
the flatbed truck driver also mentioned PBOC didnt pay him for the tow off the track? so yea paid him also (try to do the right thing?)
anyway I was sick to my stomach since the crash and beat myself up a million times but life goes on.
well I have great vid of the crash but in the sense of fairness and in the era of lawyers, insurance, etc really would have never thought of making a youtube vid of it for the entire world to see. not because of my ego, I love critiscism and love to learn but for the other reasons I mentioned.
well the "other" ferrari (the other drivers friend) didnt think the way I did and posted a vid of the crash on you tube. what say you?
and yes now that that it is up I will post as well? must admit his vid looks worse than my in car vid and I am glad I bought the Ferrari driver (Tim) a new wheel.
here is the other guys vid, I will post up latter, maybe.
just curious as to would one post a vid of a crash of someone else? is that cool or not? I personally would not have done it.
the perpetual student
tom
this was posted from the other ferrari car.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fEFkwkEGMdg
this was my in car vid, just go to the end........not pretty.............
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0g_9-T4PZo
I looked at my vid a million times and if I had to do it over I would not have tried the pass. It initially seemed to me I had the inside. however when beside the other car I thought he would stay to the outside of the corner and me the inside. however he turned in at the usual DE turn in point an tracked right to the apex, ah right were I was. he said he didnt see me and I said well I probably shouldnt have been there.
His rear wheel was cracked and minor cosmetic damage. he re-entered the race, won class and forth overall.
my cars front upright, radiatior, and tie rod broke so I was done.
after the race we were good he was quite the gentleman about it and I also told him I would in the spirit of sportsmenship buy him a new rear wheel.
he was very happy about that and I think all was good.
the flatbed truck driver also mentioned PBOC didnt pay him for the tow off the track? so yea paid him also (try to do the right thing?)
anyway I was sick to my stomach since the crash and beat myself up a million times but life goes on.
well I have great vid of the crash but in the sense of fairness and in the era of lawyers, insurance, etc really would have never thought of making a youtube vid of it for the entire world to see. not because of my ego, I love critiscism and love to learn but for the other reasons I mentioned.
well the "other" ferrari (the other drivers friend) didnt think the way I did and posted a vid of the crash on you tube. what say you?
and yes now that that it is up I will post as well? must admit his vid looks worse than my in car vid and I am glad I bought the Ferrari driver (Tim) a new wheel.
here is the other guys vid, I will post up latter, maybe.
just curious as to would one post a vid of a crash of someone else? is that cool or not? I personally would not have done it.
the perpetual student
tom
this was posted from the other ferrari car.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fEFkwkEGMdg
this was my in car vid, just go to the end........not pretty.............
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0g_9-T4PZo