View Poll Results: Why don't I, a DE instructor, take up club racing?
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 99. You may not vote on this poll
Why don't I club race?
05-05-2009, 06:50 PM
#151
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That stuff is not race craft. It is basic driving. Racecraft is more mind games. That could mean pulling out to look like you will try a pass in a effort to get the driver in front to late brake themselves into an error. Racecraft is faking the inside move to the lead guy to move off line. Racecraft is letting a car pass you deep while you set-up for an over/under move to repass on corner exit. Heck racecraft is slighly overslowing at an apex to kill the momentum of the car behind you so you gain and edge in spot you maybe weaker on track.
Agreed.
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05-05-2009, 06:51 PM
#152
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This thread is another classic example why very few instuctors even bother to post here anymore. I really have no question about the skill level difference that it takes to club race.
We all set our goals and priorities, I'm comfortable with my decision but explaining it here would be about like discussing the joys of christmas at a Koran reading. Some of you need to back away from the keyboard and get a freakin life!
We all set our goals and priorities, I'm comfortable with my decision but explaining it here would be about like discussing the joys of christmas at a Koran reading. Some of you need to back away from the keyboard and get a freakin life!
05-05-2009, 07:01 PM
#153
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Larry Herman
2016 Ford Transit Connect Titanium LWB
2018 Tesla Model 3 - Electricity can be fun!
Retired Club Racer & National PCA Instructor
Past Flames:
1994 RS America Club Racer
2004 GT3 Track Car
1984 911 Carrera Club Racer
1974 914/4 2.0 Track Car
CLICK HERE to see some of my ancient racing videos.
05-05-2009, 07:05 PM
#154
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Very good points there. I wonder how much of racecraft can really be taught at a DE event. I.e, if a guy came up to you and said, "Hey, I want to go racing. Can you instruct me and give me some pointers on how to best prepare?", how much could you really teach in a DE environment?
For instance, side-by-side passing in the corner. I applaud PCA in giving this a trial run, but I'd be surprised if the DE version of mid-corner passing is anything like the racing version of it. In the DE, you give someone a signal, and you help them around the corner by leaving lots of room. In the racing version, if I'm battling for position, and a faster car tries to dive bomb on the inside, I might try to leave one car width and one inch. I'm trusting that he has the car control to handle that and he trusts the same with me. If he can get by, he's earned it, and if not, get back in line!
You can definitely teach taking turns off line at a DE, but it's also hard to teach how you know if you did it correctly. Yes, you can go off-line, but did you do it in a manner so that the guy you passed can't repass you on exit?
Even passing is different in DE's versus racing. At a race, you are going to get on someone's rear bumper, pull out at the last second and the pass will be so close you could almost reach out and touch the other guy's car. If you tried to pass like that at a DE, you'd start scaring your fellow participants.
Setting up a pass can almost be taught at a DE, but the problem is that there are no consequences. Let's say that you are faster than some guy in a high HP car. At a race, you need to time it so that you exit the corner at full throttle and catch your opponent very shortly after that. If you catch him in the turn, you generally have to slow to his speed, and since he has a faster car, he wins the HP battle down the following straight. At a DE, if you catch the guy in a turn, and the guy checks his mirrors, you simply get a pass signal. Ironically, the best thing for a budding racer is to have someone that either doesn't check his mirrors or gives the signal but stomps on the gas. It forces the person to figure out how to make the pass happen.
DE's are mainly about learning car control and being safe while other cars are also on the track. In a way, what you learn in a DE is mostly useful in the context of a qualifying session (even in the qualifying session though, there are tricks that you'd never learn at a DE)
For instance, side-by-side passing in the corner. I applaud PCA in giving this a trial run, but I'd be surprised if the DE version of mid-corner passing is anything like the racing version of it. In the DE, you give someone a signal, and you help them around the corner by leaving lots of room. In the racing version, if I'm battling for position, and a faster car tries to dive bomb on the inside, I might try to leave one car width and one inch. I'm trusting that he has the car control to handle that and he trusts the same with me. If he can get by, he's earned it, and if not, get back in line!
You can definitely teach taking turns off line at a DE, but it's also hard to teach how you know if you did it correctly. Yes, you can go off-line, but did you do it in a manner so that the guy you passed can't repass you on exit?
Even passing is different in DE's versus racing. At a race, you are going to get on someone's rear bumper, pull out at the last second and the pass will be so close you could almost reach out and touch the other guy's car. If you tried to pass like that at a DE, you'd start scaring your fellow participants.
Setting up a pass can almost be taught at a DE, but the problem is that there are no consequences. Let's say that you are faster than some guy in a high HP car. At a race, you need to time it so that you exit the corner at full throttle and catch your opponent very shortly after that. If you catch him in the turn, you generally have to slow to his speed, and since he has a faster car, he wins the HP battle down the following straight. At a DE, if you catch the guy in a turn, and the guy checks his mirrors, you simply get a pass signal. Ironically, the best thing for a budding racer is to have someone that either doesn't check his mirrors or gives the signal but stomps on the gas. It forces the person to figure out how to make the pass happen.
DE's are mainly about learning car control and being safe while other cars are also on the track. In a way, what you learn in a DE is mostly useful in the context of a qualifying session (even in the qualifying session though, there are tricks that you'd never learn at a DE)
05-05-2009, 07:36 PM
#156
Race Director
Ok - so where does one draw the line? How much of what is learned in a racing environment carries over to a DE? The latest consensus seems to be NONE.
I believe there is some overlap. For instance, my example of the line through Big Bend and the Lefthander at Lime Rock. Should the wider arc be taught at DE's? Since some believe it is a 'safer' line?
Like I said - I'm not a racer - just a DE guy. With a controversial view on this subject matter...
-Z-man.
I believe there is some overlap. For instance, my example of the line through Big Bend and the Lefthander at Lime Rock. Should the wider arc be taught at DE's? Since some believe it is a 'safer' line?
Like I said - I'm not a racer - just a DE guy. With a controversial view on this subject matter...
-Z-man.
05-05-2009, 07:55 PM
#157
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One size does not fit all! Beginning DE drivers should be taught the basics and the line until they understand it and can drive it with reasonable consistency. From that point on, I see no reason not to begin offer as much "advanced" instruction as the student can handle. And that is the operative phrase "as much as they can handle". Some can begin to learn more of the limits of the car, and carry more entry speed, and begin to trailbrake to rotate the car etc. Some can even work on off-line driving and more aggressive trailbraking. And some have all they can do just to continue to drive the line smoothly and with consistency as their aggression increases..
05-06-2009, 12:13 AM
#158
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Z-man - OK, let me clarify a bit. The guy I was talking about is a long time instructor, so he knows the line, how to teach it, etc. My points relate to the racing experience, not the on-track experience in general. But let me address your points:
Passing: Passing in racing is NOTHING like passing in DE. In a DE, both parties involved know EXACTLY what's going to happen - or at least they should. By definition, it's controlled. In racing, it's a chess game - both are trying to out think the other on the pass. And passing IN a turn is nothing like a late "point by" pass. you must understand the room you have to give or take. very, very different.
Spacial awareness: easy when you know what the cars around you are going to do. But how many times have you done a start in a race, with 50 cars around you, all diving into a turn that is MAYBE 3 cars wide? You have to see what the guy in front is doing, all the people on the sides, and behind, as well as the cars ahead to see where an opening will appear. It's very different and honestly, very disconcerting the first few times.
Patience: I guess I mean patience in not trying to pass the guy in front of you at every turn. That was a big problem I had - I would try to pass the guy as soon as I got to him. Sometimes, you need to learn patience and set them up for a pass that does not have you lose momentum (I race a 914, I need all the momentum I can get!) And some passes are easier and better played than others for all involved.
Predictability: yes, predictability should always be a part of track driving, but it's different when you don't get a point by for a pass. My point is more that when a faster car is coming up, don't go swerving to get out of the way and become "unpredictable". Stay your lane, let the faster guy go. Yes, same applies in DE, just more magnified in racing.
Learning limits: one of the truely great things about DE's for advanced drivers is that the more seat time you get, the more you become one with the car and know EXACTLY how it will react in any given circumstance. But as much as you try to drive all over the track in a DE, it's hard to replicate the racing experience - like driving side by side for 4 FULL LAPS, sometimes fully inside a turn, sometimes on the extreme outside, always needing to be in complete control at all times, but not wanting to give room for the other guy to pass. That's more what I mean about the limits - driving outside of the normal comfort zone, but being completly in control at all times. Unfortunately, not all the racers out there have learned this yet.
I am certainly not saying that the skill sets we teach in DE's do not translate to what we need to know in racing, because they do. In racing, the situations are much more magnified and things happen so much quicker, so everything we've spent all these years learning and praticing in DE's needs to become second nature.
I take my DE time as practice and seat time. I practice driving way off line, diving into turns to "make a pass", and just getting more seat time. I figure until someone pays me a lot of money to race, I still have a lot to learn myself.
Passing: Passing in racing is NOTHING like passing in DE. In a DE, both parties involved know EXACTLY what's going to happen - or at least they should. By definition, it's controlled. In racing, it's a chess game - both are trying to out think the other on the pass. And passing IN a turn is nothing like a late "point by" pass. you must understand the room you have to give or take. very, very different.
Spacial awareness: easy when you know what the cars around you are going to do. But how many times have you done a start in a race, with 50 cars around you, all diving into a turn that is MAYBE 3 cars wide? You have to see what the guy in front is doing, all the people on the sides, and behind, as well as the cars ahead to see where an opening will appear. It's very different and honestly, very disconcerting the first few times.
Patience: I guess I mean patience in not trying to pass the guy in front of you at every turn. That was a big problem I had - I would try to pass the guy as soon as I got to him. Sometimes, you need to learn patience and set them up for a pass that does not have you lose momentum (I race a 914, I need all the momentum I can get!) And some passes are easier and better played than others for all involved.
Predictability: yes, predictability should always be a part of track driving, but it's different when you don't get a point by for a pass. My point is more that when a faster car is coming up, don't go swerving to get out of the way and become "unpredictable". Stay your lane, let the faster guy go. Yes, same applies in DE, just more magnified in racing.
Learning limits: one of the truely great things about DE's for advanced drivers is that the more seat time you get, the more you become one with the car and know EXACTLY how it will react in any given circumstance. But as much as you try to drive all over the track in a DE, it's hard to replicate the racing experience - like driving side by side for 4 FULL LAPS, sometimes fully inside a turn, sometimes on the extreme outside, always needing to be in complete control at all times, but not wanting to give room for the other guy to pass. That's more what I mean about the limits - driving outside of the normal comfort zone, but being completly in control at all times. Unfortunately, not all the racers out there have learned this yet.
I am certainly not saying that the skill sets we teach in DE's do not translate to what we need to know in racing, because they do. In racing, the situations are much more magnified and things happen so much quicker, so everything we've spent all these years learning and praticing in DE's needs to become second nature.
I take my DE time as practice and seat time. I practice driving way off line, diving into turns to "make a pass", and just getting more seat time. I figure until someone pays me a lot of money to race, I still have a lot to learn myself.
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05-06-2009, 10:51 AM
#162
Race Director
naroescape - thanks for the explanation. Appreciate the comments. I do recognize that in many aspects, CR is vastly different from DE. But there is some overlap. And I think there are different definitions of "racecraft" floating around here too.
-Z-man.
-Z-man.
05-06-2009, 11:05 AM
#163
Race Director
Z-man,
I have to say that it is really hard to describe in words all that happens when racing. When you are racing the driving is really only 25% of what you are thinking about. The rest is all about passing or not being passed. In essense this is race craft. Driving line plays a role in this, but often times you need to adjust your line based on the car you chasing or who is chasing you. You may take a corner differnet every single lap in race and that is ok.
You can't teach this stuff in a DE since getting another car to play just won't happen. Maybe you can learn 10% of what it takes to be a skilled racer. Now a skilled racer is not always the fastest as pure speed is just one tool in his/her bag of tricks. As you race more and more the bag of tricks expands. This past weekend I completed my 100th race and over those years I have picked up many tools to apply when racing. Even so their are many more to learn.
I have to say that it is really hard to describe in words all that happens when racing. When you are racing the driving is really only 25% of what you are thinking about. The rest is all about passing or not being passed. In essense this is race craft. Driving line plays a role in this, but often times you need to adjust your line based on the car you chasing or who is chasing you. You may take a corner differnet every single lap in race and that is ok.
You can't teach this stuff in a DE since getting another car to play just won't happen. Maybe you can learn 10% of what it takes to be a skilled racer. Now a skilled racer is not always the fastest as pure speed is just one tool in his/her bag of tricks. As you race more and more the bag of tricks expands. This past weekend I completed my 100th race and over those years I have picked up many tools to apply when racing. Even so their are many more to learn.
