hand positions with and without an airbag? need advise
03-10-2009, 09:34 AM
#76
King of Cool
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
How can you say that something like this has a right or wrong? It either works for a driver, or it doesn't.
Quite obviously, it's worked for some pretty competitive and successful drivers, so that would put it in the "works" category, at least for them.
And guess what? Not everyone does everything the same way. Some things work for some people, and not others.
Drivers can make their own decisions about what styles, or methodologies, or setups, or mental preparation they want to employ in their driving... as long as it doesn't affect anyone else in a dangerous manner, I don't care... go nuts! So yeah, no Armour-all on the tire treads, but go nuts with the shuffle steering, or left foot braking, or whatever else you want to try.
If drivers happen to limit their potential by adopting certain styles, so be it. But to simply discount alternative means of doing things because "it's wrong", is, well, WRONG.
While there's something to be said for being conservative in what is taught to the guy at his first DE in order to keep things simple, I still say there's nothing wrong with introducing the idea to him. To totally exclude it as a possibility would be, again, WRONG.
I just wish you'd quit preaching stuff like this because it's the way YOU think it should be done, and therefore it's the "RIGHT" or proper way to do things.
Quite obviously, it's worked for some pretty competitive and successful drivers, so that would put it in the "works" category, at least for them.
And guess what? Not everyone does everything the same way. Some things work for some people, and not others.
Drivers can make their own decisions about what styles, or methodologies, or setups, or mental preparation they want to employ in their driving... as long as it doesn't affect anyone else in a dangerous manner, I don't care... go nuts! So yeah, no Armour-all on the tire treads, but go nuts with the shuffle steering, or left foot braking, or whatever else you want to try.
If drivers happen to limit their potential by adopting certain styles, so be it. But to simply discount alternative means of doing things because "it's wrong", is, well, WRONG.
While there's something to be said for being conservative in what is taught to the guy at his first DE in order to keep things simple, I still say there's nothing wrong with introducing the idea to him. To totally exclude it as a possibility would be, again, WRONG.
I just wish you'd quit preaching stuff like this because it's the way YOU think it should be done, and therefore it's the "RIGHT" or proper way to do things.
I don't think that's preaching and there really is a preferred way (I didn't say "better") to do things.
We all know there are few real fast pro drivers who change their hand position but to every one of them, there is a hundred who doesn't and that tells us something.
Jeff Healey was an awesome blind blues guitar player who played by sitting on a chair and holding holding his guitar flat on his lap and even though he was able to make amazing things with his way of playing, it's absolutely correct for guitar teachers in the World to teach to play by holding the guitar the way 99% of the players do.
03-10-2009, 09:40 AM
#77
Rennlist Member
J,
I don't think that's preaching and there really is a preferred way (I didn't say "better") to do things.
We all know there are few real fast pro drivers who change their hand position but to every one of them, there is a hundred who doesn't and that tells us something.
Jeff Healey was an awesome blind blues guitar player who played by sitting on a chair and holding holding his guitar flat on his lap and even though he was able to make amazing things with his way of playing, it's absolutely correct for guitar teachers in the World to teach to play by holding the guitar the way 99% of the players do.
I don't think that's preaching and there really is a preferred way (I didn't say "better") to do things.
We all know there are few real fast pro drivers who change their hand position but to every one of them, there is a hundred who doesn't and that tells us something.
Jeff Healey was an awesome blind blues guitar player who played by sitting on a chair and holding holding his guitar flat on his lap and even though he was able to make amazing things with his way of playing, it's absolutely correct for guitar teachers in the World to teach to play by holding the guitar the way 99% of the players do.
Professional Racing and Driving Coach
03-10-2009, 11:25 AM
#78
King of Cool
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
03-10-2009, 01:05 PM
#79
Rennlist Member
03-10-2009, 02:12 PM
#80
Rennlist Member
It was based on my opinon, with an explaination of why. As was quoted, there are many ways to skin a cat
Yes, I do think it is wrong to teach a newbe to shufflesteer on the road racing track. My opinion! And I gave some examples of why. No more no less.
The only thing that I am absolutely, postitively right on , is that power determines acceleration at ANY speed.
.
mk
Yes, I do think it is wrong to teach a newbe to shufflesteer on the road racing track. My opinion! And I gave some examples of why. No more no less.
The only thing that I am absolutely, postitively right on , is that power determines acceleration at ANY speed.
. mk
Last edited by mark kibort; 03-10-2009 at 02:43 PM.
03-10-2009, 02:14 PM
#81
Rennlist Member
Now that is funny!
BTW, I once instructed a student who had a few prior events, and he kept moving his hands even with the slightest turn of the wheel. When I brought it up, he told me that his previous instructor said to do that, and that he heard it again in the classroom..."they said always keep your hands at 9 and 3 on the wheel"!
03-10-2009, 03:51 PM
#83
Rennlist Member
Professional Racing and Driving Coach
03-10-2009, 04:32 PM
#84
Rennlist Member
I know Dave, all kinding aside!
However, I provided examples ** to show how engine torque is not an indication of rear wheel torque and power was. (at any vehicle speed). The example of coming off a turn, was clearly shown to favor a broader HP curve, rather than a higher numerical torque valued engine. I know what you meant to say, and generally you are right. Most big torque engines characteristically have a broader HP curve, but its not the rule. cheers
mk
** The example was two engines, both 285rwhp , but one had 50 more ft-lbs of torque than the other. If both were in the same car, the lower torque engine had more available torque at the wheels and force at the ground at any point on the track, INCLUDING coming off the turns. (Because i had a broader HP curve)
VR quote:
"We were comparing 2 identical 400 hp cars with different torque on road courses.
And despite all your condescension and sanctimony, every time you try to change that to suit your predetermined conclusion, it speaks volumes.
And yes, Mark, I do hold fast to my experience, and also to my ability to actually compare apples to apples. And the car with the greater torque production--all other things being equal--will do better on a road course. Period."
Here is an example of two equal HP cars with one having greater "engine" torque than the other yet, in any area of acceleration, the lower torque engine would beat it. https://rennlist.com/forums/6282005-post246.html
However, I provided examples ** to show how engine torque is not an indication of rear wheel torque and power was. (at any vehicle speed). The example of coming off a turn, was clearly shown to favor a broader HP curve, rather than a higher numerical torque valued engine. I know what you meant to say, and generally you are right. Most big torque engines characteristically have a broader HP curve, but its not the rule. cheers
mk
** The example was two engines, both 285rwhp , but one had 50 more ft-lbs of torque than the other. If both were in the same car, the lower torque engine had more available torque at the wheels and force at the ground at any point on the track, INCLUDING coming off the turns. (Because i had a broader HP curve)
VR quote:
"We were comparing 2 identical 400 hp cars with different torque on road courses.
And despite all your condescension and sanctimony, every time you try to change that to suit your predetermined conclusion, it speaks volumes.
And yes, Mark, I do hold fast to my experience, and also to my ability to actually compare apples to apples. And the car with the greater torque production--all other things being equal--will do better on a road course. Period."
Here is an example of two equal HP cars with one having greater "engine" torque than the other yet, in any area of acceleration, the lower torque engine would beat it. https://rennlist.com/forums/6282005-post246.html
Mark, all kidding aside, this wasn't and never has been the issue, and you know it. The issue was comparing two cars' relative prowess on a road course based on several parameters including engine HP and torque, and nothing more.
Professional Racing and Driving Coach
Professional Racing and Driving Coach
03-10-2009, 07:26 PM
#86
Rennlist Member
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03-10-2009, 10:26 PM
#88
Rennlist Member
03-11-2009, 02:08 PM
#89
Rennlist Member
