hand positions with and without an airbag? need advise
#1
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hand positions with and without an airbag? need advise
Hi all, I am pulling out my stock steering wheel with the airbag and replacing it with a Sparco.
When I instruct I always tell the student not to cross his arms because of the airbag and I also "shuffle steer" I guess.
Anyway with the new steering wheel and no airbag do I change my hand motions while turning or stay the same?
do I just keep my hands at 3 and 9 and just rotate the wheel, cross arms and not move my hands?
what is the correct thing to do without an airbag for hand position vs with?
sorry if this makes me sound stupid or inexperienced cause I am
any suggestions for hand position and movement while turning with the new Sparco wheel would be appreciated
thanks
tom
When I instruct I always tell the student not to cross his arms because of the airbag and I also "shuffle steer" I guess.
Anyway with the new steering wheel and no airbag do I change my hand motions while turning or stay the same?
do I just keep my hands at 3 and 9 and just rotate the wheel, cross arms and not move my hands?
what is the correct thing to do without an airbag for hand position vs with?
sorry if this makes me sound stupid or inexperienced cause I am
any suggestions for hand position and movement while turning with the new Sparco wheel would be appreciated
thanks
tom
#2
Race Director
Tom I am far from an expert as you know but I would try both ways and see which way your are faster and which way feels the best. I know from reading these forums most people do not like the shuffle steer method. However from watching a bunch of in car race video's I have seen all sort of techniques.
#3
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i know there are very fast and some pro's who shuffle str. but i dont like to do that. i leave them at 3/9 or 2/10 position.
#5
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Hey;
Whatever works for you. One indication of whether you have a proper seating position and diameter of steering wheel is if you CAN leave your hands in one place. I definitely have to shuffle steer in a stock vehicle, as I cannot get my hands past my knees. Even with custom seating, I used to have to shuffle steer with the stock wheel because my elbows locked out very early in the steering range, but with my Sparco 330mm I do not.
Another point. I would not instruct a student any differently if they had an airbag, in terms of hand position. Put your hands at 3 and 9 regardless, and cross to avoid shuffle steering if possible. If you are about to hit the wall, in most cases your hands should not be on the steering wheel anyway. In other words, you're likely to break your arm either way if you hold on.
Whatever works for you. One indication of whether you have a proper seating position and diameter of steering wheel is if you CAN leave your hands in one place. I definitely have to shuffle steer in a stock vehicle, as I cannot get my hands past my knees. Even with custom seating, I used to have to shuffle steer with the stock wheel because my elbows locked out very early in the steering range, but with my Sparco 330mm I do not.
Another point. I would not instruct a student any differently if they had an airbag, in terms of hand position. Put your hands at 3 and 9 regardless, and cross to avoid shuffle steering if possible. If you are about to hit the wall, in most cases your hands should not be on the steering wheel anyway. In other words, you're likely to break your arm either way if you hold on.
#6
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Hey;
Whatever works for you. One indication of whether you have a proper seating position and diameter of steering wheel is if you CAN leave your hands in one place. I definitely have to shuffle steer in a stock vehicle, as I cannot get my hands past my knees. Even with custom seating, I used to have to shuffle steer with the stock wheel because my elbows locked out very early in the steering range, but with my Sparco 330mm I do not.
Another point. I would not instruct a student any differently if they had an airbag, in terms of hand position. Put your hands at 3 and 9 regardless, and cross to avoid shuffle steering if possible. If you are about to hit the wall, in most cases your hands should not be on the steering wheel anyway. In other words, you're likely to break your arm either way if you hold on.
Whatever works for you. One indication of whether you have a proper seating position and diameter of steering wheel is if you CAN leave your hands in one place. I definitely have to shuffle steer in a stock vehicle, as I cannot get my hands past my knees. Even with custom seating, I used to have to shuffle steer with the stock wheel because my elbows locked out very early in the steering range, but with my Sparco 330mm I do not.
Another point. I would not instruct a student any differently if they had an airbag, in terms of hand position. Put your hands at 3 and 9 regardless, and cross to avoid shuffle steering if possible. If you are about to hit the wall, in most cases your hands should not be on the steering wheel anyway. In other words, you're likely to break your arm either way if you hold on.
Gotta agree with this. I have never urged students with airbags to not hold the wheel properly.
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#7
Drifting
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Whether or not "shuffle" steering can or does work for some folks (I never cross my arms...I change position on the wheel but don't really shuffle), I can't imagine instructing different between cars with or without airbags. The correct instruction would be to remove your hands from the wheel before impact anyway, so hand position shouldn't matter.
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#9
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thanks for the input and advise always good and I appreciate it.
I guess what I really meant was do I now turn keeping my hands on the wheel (therefore they cross) since I dont have to move them and I dont have an airbag to worry about?
wheel is smaller and I can turn without moving my hands for most corners except a hairpin
thanks again
tom
I guess what I really meant was do I now turn keeping my hands on the wheel (therefore they cross) since I dont have to move them and I dont have an airbag to worry about?
wheel is smaller and I can turn without moving my hands for most corners except a hairpin
thanks again
tom
#10
I like the 3 and 9 position for all high-speed events (as opposed to auto-x). If the rear of the car gets out of shape and you make your steering correction, you will always know exactly where the straight-ahead position is for the front wheels.
#11
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And thats always been my point as well. Guys that shufflesteer, usually do that out of a bad habit that will latch on exuses so that they dont have to change. (air bag, cross arms, etc) its a bad habit, no matter what perspective you are coming from. I would rather have a newbie let go of one hand if he is that worried about an air bag release and an impact. If you are not shufflesteering, you are not as likely to hit that wall or get the car that bent out of shape anyway.
If you get out of shape anyway, usually you are going back and forth at full lock on the steering wheel anyway, like autocross, and would have to be "shufflesteering " to do that range of steering input.
The crossed arm idea came from F1, where during an impact for them its better not to have the arms crossed due to their confined quarters, but they cant sufflesteer due to the wheel shape. they just let go of the wheel to keep from their arms being smashed up.
mk
If you get out of shape anyway, usually you are going back and forth at full lock on the steering wheel anyway, like autocross, and would have to be "shufflesteering " to do that range of steering input.
The crossed arm idea came from F1, where during an impact for them its better not to have the arms crossed due to their confined quarters, but they cant sufflesteer due to the wheel shape. they just let go of the wheel to keep from their arms being smashed up.
mk
#12
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Ive seen some fast "pros" get into accidents because of shuffle steering. Its not a matter of how fast you can drive the car, its controlling it when something goes a little wrong. you loose all position knowledge of the wheel and tires. (even with the cute little "up" marker). A good analogy, is Im flying a plane with you . Just before landing, I give you the stick and the trim is all messed up to where you expect "neutral control" to be...... good luck!
mk
mk
#13
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I'll use your analogy to make the point you seem to be trying to make about shuffle steering. In your analogy, when the actual pilot takes his hand off the stick to scratch his nose, he instantly forgets where the trim is set and has no idea what to do when he puts his hand back on it.
Last edited by Bryan Watts; 03-05-2009 at 02:25 PM. Reason: my spelling sucks
#14
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Sounds like you like shufflesteering. Good luck with that.
By the way, fast pros doesnt mean, "well paid" pros. I've got in-car accident footage of a guy in a pro race showing that shuffle steering "could have " contributed to the lack of control before an accident (and spins) To your point, it is a feel as you are "shuffle steering" . You point is more applicable to driving on ice or snow. since things happen much slower than on pavement, and the range of steering inputs are much greater, its pretty well accepted to shuffle steer on dirt or snow. (or drifting).
Maybe the pilot analogy wasnt the best one, but the point is that during shufflesteering, its it very easy to over correct due to moving hand position, just as hand position alone sometimes limits control range and speed of inputs, critical for keeping control. most tail waggers are just out of synch with timing of the correction, or were started with too much input to begin with. If you are shufflesteering, and you are going into a turn, after cheating up the hands. (i.e. shufflesteering), you now have more leverage going into the turn on the wheel. if you get sideways, the corrective move might not have enough force or speed due to the lack of leverage going the other direction. That is the basic point of "why" or "how" it is not as optimal as driving with both hands in a fixed neutral position (ie 3-9 oclock). Hey, dont take my word for it, there are no footage that i was able to find from "GOOD" pros that shufflesteer.
There are plenty of guys that can still run a fast lap time while shuffle steering. Its not to say that It cant bite them some day under the right unfortunate conditions. Hey, even not shufflesteering is no gurantee either, but you increases your chances of ann easier recovery from the car position being out of shape.
Your comments regarding the analogy: Yes, if someone is driving the car, and could hand me the wheel, if his hands were 3-9, it would be easy to take over. if they were shuffle steering, there would be no way to know what the wheels were doing. The pilot analogy as well. If Im trimed down for example and i give you the stick, i had no way of knowing that we are trimed down. I have been applying great force to pull up the nose. I "scratch my nose" I still know that i hae to use great force to pull up to have level flight. I give you the stick, and we go right into the ground. that really is the point. In a slide you can remember so much. but, if you give more turning input to the wheels than you intend because you forget where your position is relative to straight, you could enhance a bad situation of control. thats it! Fight it all you want, but if you look at lots of incar video as i have, you can see that many mistakes when things go wrong can be partly or fully attributed to bad hand position during shuffle steering.
You said:
"Would I teach someone from a start to drive the way I do? No. Would I teach someone to drive the way you do? No."
Why dont you watch this video and Ill watch your video and make comments about drving style. So far in the past, you only commented on me drving with one hand. This was mostly due to a broken, problematic shift linkage issue that i was able to drive around. In this video last season, i was able to fix it and from the looks of the video, the style is pretty common. maybe not. Lets see what your 11 years of racing vs my 11 years of racing and 150 race days wll show.
http://www.youtube.com/v/Sih48Dby9d0
mk
By the way, fast pros doesnt mean, "well paid" pros. I've got in-car accident footage of a guy in a pro race showing that shuffle steering "could have " contributed to the lack of control before an accident (and spins) To your point, it is a feel as you are "shuffle steering" . You point is more applicable to driving on ice or snow. since things happen much slower than on pavement, and the range of steering inputs are much greater, its pretty well accepted to shuffle steer on dirt or snow. (or drifting).
Maybe the pilot analogy wasnt the best one, but the point is that during shufflesteering, its it very easy to over correct due to moving hand position, just as hand position alone sometimes limits control range and speed of inputs, critical for keeping control. most tail waggers are just out of synch with timing of the correction, or were started with too much input to begin with. If you are shufflesteering, and you are going into a turn, after cheating up the hands. (i.e. shufflesteering), you now have more leverage going into the turn on the wheel. if you get sideways, the corrective move might not have enough force or speed due to the lack of leverage going the other direction. That is the basic point of "why" or "how" it is not as optimal as driving with both hands in a fixed neutral position (ie 3-9 oclock). Hey, dont take my word for it, there are no footage that i was able to find from "GOOD" pros that shufflesteer.
There are plenty of guys that can still run a fast lap time while shuffle steering. Its not to say that It cant bite them some day under the right unfortunate conditions. Hey, even not shufflesteering is no gurantee either, but you increases your chances of ann easier recovery from the car position being out of shape.
Your comments regarding the analogy: Yes, if someone is driving the car, and could hand me the wheel, if his hands were 3-9, it would be easy to take over. if they were shuffle steering, there would be no way to know what the wheels were doing. The pilot analogy as well. If Im trimed down for example and i give you the stick, i had no way of knowing that we are trimed down. I have been applying great force to pull up the nose. I "scratch my nose" I still know that i hae to use great force to pull up to have level flight. I give you the stick, and we go right into the ground. that really is the point. In a slide you can remember so much. but, if you give more turning input to the wheels than you intend because you forget where your position is relative to straight, you could enhance a bad situation of control. thats it! Fight it all you want, but if you look at lots of incar video as i have, you can see that many mistakes when things go wrong can be partly or fully attributed to bad hand position during shuffle steering.
You said:
"Would I teach someone from a start to drive the way I do? No. Would I teach someone to drive the way you do? No."
Why dont you watch this video and Ill watch your video and make comments about drving style. So far in the past, you only commented on me drving with one hand. This was mostly due to a broken, problematic shift linkage issue that i was able to drive around. In this video last season, i was able to fix it and from the looks of the video, the style is pretty common. maybe not. Lets see what your 11 years of racing vs my 11 years of racing and 150 race days wll show.
http://www.youtube.com/v/Sih48Dby9d0
mk
You've seen fast pros get into accidents BECAUSE of shuffle steering or WHILE shuffle steering? Exactly what sort of accident did they get into that could have totally been avoided by not shuffle steering? Any specific incident you can give us the details of?
How exactly do you know this? I can tell you from 11+ years of experience now that I have never once lost knowledge of the position of the wheel. The mind is capable of remembering how much you've turned the wheel just as easily as it can remember that your arms being back at 9 & 3 means straight along with 1000 other things it's processing while you're driving. Besides that, knowing where straight is is WAY overrated anyway. As long as I can feel the way the car is reacting and see/sense which way the car is travelling, knowing exactly where to find "center" is pretty worthless. Would I teach someone from a start to drive the way I do? No. Would I teach someone to drive the way you do? No.
Your analogy sucks. If I give you a steering wheel that you weren't previously controlling and you place your hands at 9&3, you have no idea where center is either. Is center to the right or left? One round of the wheel or two?
In your analogy, if the actual pilot takes his hand off the stick to scratch his nose does he instantly forget where the trim is set? Of course not.
How exactly do you know this? I can tell you from 11+ years of experience now that I have never once lost knowledge of the position of the wheel. The mind is capable of remembering how much you've turned the wheel just as easily as it can remember that your arms being back at 9 & 3 means straight along with 1000 other things it's processing while you're driving. Besides that, knowing where straight is is WAY overrated anyway. As long as I can feel the way the car is reacting and see/sense which way the car is travelling, knowing exactly where to find "center" is pretty worthless. Would I teach someone from a start to drive the way I do? No. Would I teach someone to drive the way you do? No.
Your analogy sucks. If I give you a steering wheel that you weren't previously controlling and you place your hands at 9&3, you have no idea where center is either. Is center to the right or left? One round of the wheel or two?
In your analogy, if the actual pilot takes his hand off the stick to scratch his nose does he instantly forget where the trim is set? Of course not.