How do you know an instructor should not be?
02-23-2009, 06:59 PM
#46
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The Region I used to be a member handed out Instructor evaluation cards to every student, every event. I never heard a word about the feedback, good, bad or indifferent. So, I assume they only give negative feedback and mine was always very positive!
Seriously, I always ask throughout an event what I could do more, do less, do differently ,etc. Most students seem fairly open to telling me.
Seriously, I always ask throughout an event what I could do more, do less, do differently ,etc. Most students seem fairly open to telling me.
02-23-2009, 07:03 PM
#47
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I think the PCA national program was originally designed to gain some degree of consistency. Does the program claim to make a instructor a good instructor immediately? No. Experience in the 3 skills Larry spoke is what it takes, and that comes with windshield time and communication skills. When you are recommended to become an instructor you should be run through a region assessment by a few different region instructors. Then invited to the National program if all are in agreement. Then for the first year of instructing, placed into a mentorship program. Someone that you (as a new instructor) can go to for experience to be drawn on. This can also be a gradual level of instruction. 1st year instructor with mentor, only able to instruct initial green students. And have an experienced instructor randomly visit the new green student to evaluate the new instructor. And so on...Just my opinions and thoughts...
02-23-2009, 07:11 PM
#48
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That's interesting to read Larry ... leaving aside the fact that I've found Riesentoter's instructor corps one of the best I've seen. But let me ask you this. When you identified instructors with marginal skills, what specifically did you do about it? Did you discuss your concerns with the CI? What did he/you do to follow up?
As far as identifying and following up on those who I think need improvement, I'd rather not go down that road. Our CI and his designates should be the ones who do that.
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Larry Herman
2016 Ford Transit Connect Titanium LWB
2018 Tesla Model 3 - Electricity can be fun!
Retired Club Racer & National PCA Instructor
Past Flames:
1994 RS America Club Racer
2004 GT3 Track Car
1984 911 Carrera Club Racer
1974 914/4 2.0 Track Car
CLICK HERE to see some of my ancient racing videos.
Larry Herman
2016 Ford Transit Connect Titanium LWB
2018 Tesla Model 3 - Electricity can be fun!
Retired Club Racer & National PCA Instructor
Past Flames:
1994 RS America Club Racer
2004 GT3 Track Car
1984 911 Carrera Club Racer
1974 914/4 2.0 Track Car
CLICK HERE to see some of my ancient racing videos.
02-23-2009, 07:25 PM
#49
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02-23-2009, 07:27 PM
#50
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One that is instructing for the wrong reasons.
One that does not play well with others.
02-23-2009, 07:33 PM
#51
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We use to have a yearly complete single day clinic which we recently started doing again, as well as a much more intense full weekend clinic that some older and ALL newbie potential instructors go thru. Any current instructor is more than welcome, even highly recommended, to go thru the class to help increase the knowledge base of ALL involved.
02-23-2009, 07:46 PM
#52
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02-23-2009, 07:48 PM
#53
I'm in....
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As for passing in corners, I think that instructors should absolutely be comfortable with that.
02-23-2009, 07:48 PM
#54
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I think it's matter of what's being taught. For instance, I can teach my 8 year old how to swing a tennis racket or a golf club. However, if she got good at it, I'd quickly get her to someone who has more knowledge.
Similarly, if the goal is to teach someone who is a track virgin how to be safe and have fun, then the primary lessons are going to be finding the right line, straight line braking, laying on the power only when the wheel is straight, and flagger awareness. I think that almost anyone with 50+ days (which is still white run group material in some regions) has the necessary skills to teach that.
If the goal is to help a white run group student who is plateauing and help them figure out how to conserve momentum, then yes, you would need someone who can actually drive well within the instructor group.
If the goal is to help a fellow instructor or a racer get better, I would agree that you need an excellent driver (not necessarily better than the one being instructed).
All 3 examples above need someone who can find a way to teach in the manner that student needs to learn in order to effectively communicate the messages.
I rank communication MUCH higher than driving skill for an instructor.
Similarly, if the goal is to teach someone who is a track virgin how to be safe and have fun, then the primary lessons are going to be finding the right line, straight line braking, laying on the power only when the wheel is straight, and flagger awareness. I think that almost anyone with 50+ days (which is still white run group material in some regions) has the necessary skills to teach that.
If the goal is to help a white run group student who is plateauing and help them figure out how to conserve momentum, then yes, you would need someone who can actually drive well within the instructor group.
If the goal is to help a fellow instructor or a racer get better, I would agree that you need an excellent driver (not necessarily better than the one being instructed).
All 3 examples above need someone who can find a way to teach in the manner that student needs to learn in order to effectively communicate the messages.
I rank communication MUCH higher than driving skill for an instructor.
02-23-2009, 08:04 PM
#56
As I said before, some form of on-going feedback for instructors is needed IMHO. There isn't any (that I know of). We all (I think) encourage students to communicate with us as someone said earlier (am I talking too much/too little blah blah blah). I don't really think that sort of feedback is meaningful generally. Most, probably all, instructors I know put a great deal of effort into trying to provide quality instruction. But for some reason, evaluations aren't shared with instructors. Maybe some one can help me understand why.
02-23-2009, 08:14 PM
#57
As Larry noted in another thread, there are some instructors who should not be instructing. What do you see that leads you to that conclusion? No names, please, and let's keep this on a high level intended to assist those who would like to instruct.
For example, must an instructor be able to heel and toe downshift effectively? Must he give pointbys quickly (good track awareness and ettiquette)? Must he be comfortable passing in turns?
How about ability as an instructor (and not just as a driver)? Can you see that on the track?
For example, must an instructor be able to heel and toe downshift effectively? Must he give pointbys quickly (good track awareness and ettiquette)? Must he be comfortable passing in turns?
How about ability as an instructor (and not just as a driver)? Can you see that on the track?
Silence is gold?
There are some great speakers in the instructor clan who just looooooves their own voice and have a comment on everything. You can almost dismiss those at once. Listening to the student is a important source, just as noting their driving. I did a few laps with a F1 driver who was completely silent and just made small comments afterward. (No, he was not Finnish). I'm sure I sucked according to his standards, but he focused on the important parts and we made small adjustments.
All levels
Instructors are not perfect and instructions are done on all levels. Even full pros have a deep dialog with their teams. Very important to isolate the problem and solve it.
Using the right tools
Some students have no idea how data acquisition or vehicle dynamics works. Some instructors don't know either. Mismatch there easily becomes a mess.
Bad temper or poor jokes
Some instructors just got bad temper. Others start joking around about sensitive subjects that don't belong there. That's not the same as keeping a good spirit. *ugh* avoid! You're at the track, not the comedy club.
Here's an old thread that contained some valuable points:
https://rennlist.com/forums/racing-a...me-a-bone.html
My .2c
02-23-2009, 08:21 PM
#58
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Just a note to add.
I feel instructors today have it much harder than when I started since the cars have improved so much over the years. When I started instructing the top car was a mid 80's 911 Turbo, and while it could be a beast it was no where near as capable as a 997 Twin of today especially with all the readily available modifed 996/997 Twins out there. We regularlly see half a dozen 500-750 hp cars at our DE's.
I feel instructors today have it much harder than when I started since the cars have improved so much over the years. When I started instructing the top car was a mid 80's 911 Turbo, and while it could be a beast it was no where near as capable as a 997 Twin of today especially with all the readily available modifed 996/997 Twins out there. We regularlly see half a dozen 500-750 hp cars at our DE's.
02-23-2009, 08:28 PM
#60
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