??Thunderhill....most important corner??
02-07-2009, 02:42 PM
#46
Three Wheelin'
Yeah... technology and knowledge gained over time increase the potential for speed. Plus the track has gotten considerably faster.
Interesting analysis. Two awfully good drivers in a capable machine at a track that they know well. Seems to me if you blew turn 11, it could be because you did 10 really well and didn't adjust your braking process at 11 entry. Which system is that Tom? Traqmate or Motec? Masuo has installed the former... it will be intereting to see how he uses it.
Why would Rich drive anywhere close to 100% effort in one of his top customer's cars?
Like I said, you might gain benefit from someone like Marshall. I will suggest that until I have to start racing you. If that happens I will have to come up with some additional tricks ....
Interesting analysis. Two awfully good drivers in a capable machine at a track that they know well. Seems to me if you blew turn 11, it could be because you did 10 really well and didn't adjust your braking process at 11 entry. Which system is that Tom? Traqmate or Motec? Masuo has installed the former... it will be intereting to see how he uses it.
Why would Rich drive anywhere close to 100% effort in one of his top customer's cars?
Like I said, you might gain benefit from someone like Marshall. I will suggest that until I have to start racing you. If that happens I will have to come up with some additional tricks ....
02-07-2009, 03:20 PM
#47
Rennlist Member
[QUOTE=Mahler9th;6259409]Going back to Thill... I remember when Hurley joined the PCA event years back when the track was still pretty new to us. He drove a bunch of different cars... including a friend's RSA and another friend's 914. He pretty much declared the proper line through 2 as right in the middle of the track. That's Haywood at a PCA event.
MIke, turn 2 depends on so much, I dont think there is a way to declare the best line, due to so many different cars going through it. going late apex or middle of the road, could kill your time if you cant hold the road and pinch it down at the apex point. an early apex, gains speed on the approach and hugging the line alows for a lesser handling car, to keep grip and assure a solid high powered exit. There was a great article about early apex around the exact same turn as turn 2 in one of the Racer magazines. with a lot of data, they determined that hugging the apex from beginning to end was the fastest way aroud the turn, yeilding the faster overall lap times.
Its racing. There are many ways around the track You can see from Rich's and Tom's telemetry, there are a couple of things Tom could have done to equal his time. either way, its interesting to see how close these cars are alone the way, even though a 2 second variance was the net difference.
mk
The fastest way through turn 2, everything else being equal... is the way that yields the highest rpm at a select point at exit... for a given car.... on a given day. The geometry of the turn (if the car is a perfect object) suggests single late apex. That yields the widest geometric arc, which provides an opportunity for the maximum cornering speed. To get on here and tell a complete stranger otherwise is perhaps inappropriate.
TW: I have said it before... if you can get within 1-2 seconds of Rich... you are already pretty damn fast. If I had your resources (like Motec and time to test) I might hire someone like Marshall Pruett for a coaching experience or two.
- Mike
QUOTE]
MIke, turn 2 depends on so much, I dont think there is a way to declare the best line, due to so many different cars going through it. going late apex or middle of the road, could kill your time if you cant hold the road and pinch it down at the apex point. an early apex, gains speed on the approach and hugging the line alows for a lesser handling car, to keep grip and assure a solid high powered exit. There was a great article about early apex around the exact same turn as turn 2 in one of the Racer magazines. with a lot of data, they determined that hugging the apex from beginning to end was the fastest way aroud the turn, yeilding the faster overall lap times.
Its racing. There are many ways around the track You can see from Rich's and Tom's telemetry, there are a couple of things Tom could have done to equal his time. either way, its interesting to see how close these cars are alone the way, even though a 2 second variance was the net difference.
mk
The fastest way through turn 2, everything else being equal... is the way that yields the highest rpm at a select point at exit... for a given car.... on a given day. The geometry of the turn (if the car is a perfect object) suggests single late apex. That yields the widest geometric arc, which provides an opportunity for the maximum cornering speed. To get on here and tell a complete stranger otherwise is perhaps inappropriate.
TW: I have said it before... if you can get within 1-2 seconds of Rich... you are already pretty damn fast. If I had your resources (like Motec and time to test) I might hire someone like Marshall Pruett for a coaching experience or two.
- Mike
QUOTE]
02-07-2009, 03:34 PM
#48
Three Wheelin'
Yes, that was my point.
I am not sure what you mean by hugging the apex. The apex to me has a different meaning. I think you mean hugging the inside of the turn.
At any rate, you seem to have gotten my point.
There is the definition (widest possible arc), which is a starting point, and there is what actually is fastest, which requires some work. This work is what is required sine the car is not a perfect object of physics. You begin at the beginning, then you do the work.
I am not sure what you mean by hugging the apex. The apex to me has a different meaning. I think you mean hugging the inside of the turn.
At any rate, you seem to have gotten my point.
There is the definition (widest possible arc), which is a starting point, and there is what actually is fastest, which requires some work. This work is what is required sine the car is not a perfect object of physics. You begin at the beginning, then you do the work.
02-07-2009, 07:16 PM
#49
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The plots shown come from my MoTeC. You can get similar plots from a Traqmate (for a lot less money). The Traqmate lacks the ability to do everything that the MoTeC does for me (Dash to replace all gauges, shift and warning lights, and obviously data acquisition) but for the simple stuff like minimum corner speed and throttle position it is more than adequate.
Rich pushes pretty hard in my car so we can discuss set-up. We shared the car for the 4 hour enduro at Infineon last October and I got plenty of comparative data. He used to be 7 seconds a lap faster there. Now it's shaved to 1-2 at most.
I am getting better and much closer to Rich. Mike, you missed my embarrassing race last year at TH. Rich, driving his dad's car, qualified 0.02 (or something like that) faster than me and ended up on the pole. I was 2nd and got the better start at the green flag. Until turn 1. As I was checking my mirror to see that Rich had room to the inside as I started to turn in, I saw that there was no way I was going to make the turn (more proof you can't take it flat). I didn't save it and ended up going off *** end first. I can stay close to him, I just make more mistakes.
In my car, I find the double apex line in T2 the fastest. I'm about one-half to one car width off the inside edge of the track for the first half of the turn and then tightening to the apex.
Rich pushes pretty hard in my car so we can discuss set-up. We shared the car for the 4 hour enduro at Infineon last October and I got plenty of comparative data. He used to be 7 seconds a lap faster there. Now it's shaved to 1-2 at most.
I am getting better and much closer to Rich. Mike, you missed my embarrassing race last year at TH. Rich, driving his dad's car, qualified 0.02 (or something like that) faster than me and ended up on the pole. I was 2nd and got the better start at the green flag. Until turn 1. As I was checking my mirror to see that Rich had room to the inside as I started to turn in, I saw that there was no way I was going to make the turn (more proof you can't take it flat). I didn't save it and ended up going off *** end first. I can stay close to him, I just make more mistakes.
In my car, I find the double apex line in T2 the fastest. I'm about one-half to one car width off the inside edge of the track for the first half of the turn and then tightening to the apex.
02-07-2009, 10:21 PM
#50
Three Wheelin'
I just went to HOD event where i was lucky enough to get coaching from johannes van overbeek and rich walton.
their 2 main msges - carry more speed into most corners and don't be so hard on brakes into t6 (brake earlier and lighter and plant throttle earlier).
yes even overweight pig cars like ours can fly into corners. so as a result i starting carrying more speed into t2, t3, t10, t11 and even t5. your car can take it trust me.
i didn't beat my best time but did get my best on these particular tires.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZEgR3C-N4g
their 2 main msges - carry more speed into most corners and don't be so hard on brakes into t6 (brake earlier and lighter and plant throttle earlier).
yes even overweight pig cars like ours can fly into corners. so as a result i starting carrying more speed into t2, t3, t10, t11 and even t5. your car can take it trust me.
i didn't beat my best time but did get my best on these particular tires.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZEgR3C-N4g
Did I see a little opposite lock through 8? Man you're nuts! I need your skills asap! Very sick!
Great thread guys. I'm still in the 2:10's with PS2's so this thread has been extremely helpful! Making me want to keep my GT3...
Edit: Interesting idea of keeping speed into T3. Maybe I'm not taking it correctly, about a car and half width from the track edge, but every time I try to carry more speed into 3 I get a lot of oversteer on braking...? Suggestions?
Last edited by Carnerd; 02-07-2009 at 10:47 PM.
02-07-2009, 10:39 PM
#51
Three Wheelin'
Drivers need different advice at different points in their development. In IcemanG17's lap, I think it's pretty easy to see where he's not getting full throttle because he's entering corners at speeds he's not yet comfortable committing to. Overcooking entrance speeds is a very common thing for intermediate drivers (and bear in mind: I don't know much about IcemanG17's experience -- I'm making a guess based on his lap times versus what he thinks his car is capable of). But... in the same way you've got to learn to walk before you can run, getting comfortable with early and full throttle in corners is a skill that's got to come before throwing the car into those corners at threshold speeds. At 2:00 with the crow's nest, you're pretty far down the Thunderhill path. Walton and Van Overbeek might not be giving the same advice to someone running 2:30 laps (or 2:15 laps) in a car as quick as yours.
02-07-2009, 11:07 PM
#52
Race Car
Well, it's funny. He compared a stock GT3RS to his GT3RSR at Thunderhill in the December 2007 issue of Excellence, and if I'm remembering right, his GT3RS times were well north of two minutes. His times in his GT3RSR he races were very good. I wish I'd written down the lap times, but if my memory is working it was like a 2:04 in the GT3RS and a 1:47 or 1:45 in the GT3RSR ALMS car.
So that makes us all better-than-pro heroes, right? I mean, I've got an image in my head of a GT3 on Nittos that's faster than Overbeek is in a GT3RS -- or me in my old daily-driver '72 blowing past him between 8 and 9 as I leave him four seconds back in my dust -- right?
Well (more plausibly), it just shows the limits to which you can trust magazine articles when it comes to bringing you the straight dope on the capabilities of cars they test. Maybe it was pouring rain. Who knows? I can say without any doubt that Von Overbeek and a GT3 is going to be a faster car and driver combination than me in just about any Porsche -- certainly than me in my 250-hp, 37-year-old 911.
So that makes us all better-than-pro heroes, right? I mean, I've got an image in my head of a GT3 on Nittos that's faster than Overbeek is in a GT3RS -- or me in my old daily-driver '72 blowing past him between 8 and 9 as I leave him four seconds back in my dust -- right?
Well (more plausibly), it just shows the limits to which you can trust magazine articles when it comes to bringing you the straight dope on the capabilities of cars they test. Maybe it was pouring rain. Who knows? I can say without any doubt that Von Overbeek and a GT3 is going to be a faster car and driver combination than me in just about any Porsche -- certainly than me in my 250-hp, 37-year-old 911.
02-07-2009, 11:28 PM
#53
Three Wheelin'
Well, it's funny. He compared a stock GT3RS to his GT3RSR at Thunderhill in the December 2007 issue of Excellence, and if I'm remembering right, his GT3RS times were well north of two minutes. His times in his GT3RSR he races were very good. I wish I'd written down the lap times, but if my memory is working it was like a 2:04 in the GT3RS and a 1:47 or 1:45 in the GT3RSR ALMS car.
So that makes us all better-than-pro heroes, right? I mean, I've got an image in my head of a GT3 on Nittos that's faster than Overbeek is in a GT3RS -- or me in my old daily-driver '72 blowing past him between 8 and 9 as I leave him four seconds back in my dust -- right?
Well (more plausibly), it just shows the limits to which you can trust magazine articles when it comes to bringing you the straight dope on the capabilities of cars they test. Maybe it was pouring rain. Who knows? I can say without any doubt that Von Overbeek and a GT3 is going to be a faster car and driver combination than me in just about any Porsche -- certainly than me in my 250-hp, 37-year-old 911.
So that makes us all better-than-pro heroes, right? I mean, I've got an image in my head of a GT3 on Nittos that's faster than Overbeek is in a GT3RS -- or me in my old daily-driver '72 blowing past him between 8 and 9 as I leave him four seconds back in my dust -- right?
Well (more plausibly), it just shows the limits to which you can trust magazine articles when it comes to bringing you the straight dope on the capabilities of cars they test. Maybe it was pouring rain. Who knows? I can say without any doubt that Von Overbeek and a GT3 is going to be a faster car and driver combination than me in just about any Porsche -- certainly than me in my 250-hp, 37-year-old 911.
02-08-2009, 12:00 AM
#54
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Well, it's funny. He compared a stock GT3RS to his GT3RSR at Thunderhill in the December 2007 issue of Excellence, and if I'm remembering right, his GT3RS times were well north of two minutes. His times in his GT3RSR he races were very good. I wish I'd written down the lap times, but if my memory is working it was like a 2:04 in the GT3RS and a 1:47 or 1:45 in the GT3RSR ALMS car.
So that makes us all better-than-pro heroes, right? I mean, I've got an image in my head of a GT3 on Nittos that's faster than Overbeek is in a GT3RS -- or me in my old daily-driver '72 blowing past him between 8 and 9 as I leave him four seconds back in my dust -- right?
Well (more plausibly), it just shows the limits to which you can trust magazine articles when it comes to bringing you the straight dope on the capabilities of cars they test. Maybe it was pouring rain. Who knows? I can say without any doubt that Von Overbeek and a GT3 is going to be a faster car and driver combination than me in just about any Porsche -- certainly than me in my 250-hp, 37-year-old 911.
So that makes us all better-than-pro heroes, right? I mean, I've got an image in my head of a GT3 on Nittos that's faster than Overbeek is in a GT3RS -- or me in my old daily-driver '72 blowing past him between 8 and 9 as I leave him four seconds back in my dust -- right?
Well (more plausibly), it just shows the limits to which you can trust magazine articles when it comes to bringing you the straight dope on the capabilities of cars they test. Maybe it was pouring rain. Who knows? I can say without any doubt that Von Overbeek and a GT3 is going to be a faster car and driver combination than me in just about any Porsche -- certainly than me in my 250-hp, 37-year-old 911.
http://www.excellence-mag.com/movies...LENCEGT3RS.mov
Note he likes the tight line in T2. Also, this was a totally stock car IIRC, so it had 3 point belt, and OEM MPSC tires. Gawd knows how it was aligned. Still he's in the low 2:0x range. Catches the car in a few places with aplomb....wish I had those car control skilz.
02-08-2009, 12:34 AM
#55
Rennlist Member
Mooty and I can run in the '02-'03 range all day with decent track conditions, both on RA1's. I believe his is stock save those tires and alignment. The 993 sure ain't stock.
02-08-2009, 01:03 AM
#56
Rennlist Member
Then there is always the 20 year old 928 with the set of headers being the only engine mod running 2:01.6. On used 4 year old toyos to boot
mk
On used 4 year old toyos to boot mk
02-08-2009, 01:11 AM
#57
Rennlist Member
Put it this way, it wont be that far off what you are doing now. remember, Max The Axe, ran 1:39.7 with a stock GT3 at laguna seca. Thats a hell of a lot more car in all areas than mine at near the same weight a bunch more power.
A lot of guys can win against the top pros in a race. its happening all the time in WCGT, Touring, Rolex GT , GS, etc.
Sometime their experience can give them an edge in the decision making areas during a race, but many times, they make worse decisions than top club guys. IMNHO
By the way, one of my top competitors is good friends with VOB. he had him numerous times, tune his BMW. when the rubber met the road, he was 1 second consistantly faster than the owner, and the owner is good. (and very modest) I bet in his younger days he would be as fast. One of the things that VOB did for him was not show the owner that he was a second faster, but he was able to make changes to the car to make BOTH of them 1.5 seconds faster. That's the true value of the top pros to the good Joes!
mk
Mk
A lot of guys can win against the top pros in a race. its happening all the time in WCGT, Touring, Rolex GT , GS, etc.
Sometime their experience can give them an edge in the decision making areas during a race, but many times, they make worse decisions than top club guys. IMNHO
By the way, one of my top competitors is good friends with VOB. he had him numerous times, tune his BMW. when the rubber met the road, he was 1 second consistantly faster than the owner, and the owner is good. (and very modest) I bet in his younger days he would be as fast. One of the things that VOB did for him was not show the owner that he was a second faster, but he was able to make changes to the car to make BOTH of them 1.5 seconds faster. That's the true value of the top pros to the good Joes!
mk
Mk
02-08-2009, 01:18 AM
#58
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Totally stock car, maybe poorly setup for the track...and not his to boot. Maybe he had it dialed back just a smidge 
02-08-2009, 01:26 AM
#59
Rennlist Member
Good point. The fact that he can jump in someone ELSES car and run at the edge after one lap, is something us mortals probably cant do so well!
I remember Vooden taking Dan Jones GT3 during a DE day back in 99 or '00. He put himself and the owner passenger in the hospital. almost killed them both, destroyed the car. I think the percentage of bad things happening with VOB would go down a little too!
mk
I remember Vooden taking Dan Jones GT3 during a DE day back in 99 or '00. He put himself and the owner passenger in the hospital. almost killed them both, destroyed the car. I think the percentage of bad things happening with VOB would go down a little too!
mk