JackOlsen

Thanks, Mark. The same trick works for turn two at Willow Springs.

Speaking of pretty, here's an earlier iteration of my 911 after I took turn one too fast and ended up 180-ing around and shooting off the track engine-end-first. Going backwards, the air coming in my side windows was enough to pop my windshield out (it made a 'thop' sound and never even touched the car).



Since this was in a week-long multiple-track time trial competition, my co-driver and I had to drive to Hayward with nothing but a pair of scuba diver's goggles for protection. We had the guys at Parts Heaven leave us a windshield in the bushes outside the wrecking yard, and we installed it in the parking lot -- and made it down to Buttonwillow later the same night. At the end of the drive, I found bugs plastered to the inside of my car's rear window.

(And for the record, it's also possible to catch pheasant at Thunderhill. I did it once at an NCRC event, testing my new wide-body tub after a crash at Laguna Seca where I lost another windshield.)

mark kibort

Ive always wondered about that at turn 2 at willow. But, i think my biggest problem at willow, is 8 . I havent been there in 10 years. Love to go back sometime soon, but my Next LA trip will probably be to Cal Speedway.
Mk

mooty

if you are flat AFTER T6 apex, it's too late. you should be flat from turn in to exit for T6 if you get it right.

171mph

I just went to HOD event where i was lucky enough to get coaching from johannes van overbeek and rich walton.

their 2 main msges - carry more speed into most corners and don't be so hard on brakes into t6 (brake earlier and lighter and plant throttle earlier).

yes even overweight pig cars like ours can fly into corners. so as a result i starting carrying more speed into t2, t3, t10, t11 and even t5. your car can take it trust me.

i didn't beat my best time but did get my best on these particular tires.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZEgR3C-N4g

mark kibort

dont know about that, as turn 6 is a pretty slow/medium speed turn. its pretty traditional and almost impossible to go full throttle after turn in. at the apex, possible, if you have a car that doesnt have a lot of push or oversteer.

but you are right, it determines the speed through 7 and up to 8. 8 separates the men from the boys. I still have some time to make up there. I always have a plan to hit it harder, and always end up backing out a bit

mk

mark kibort

Rich is good with the tips. I used to race quite a bit with him and the 911s

V.O is a hack dont listen to anything he says . (I dont want you to pick me off in the next NCRC race . )

nice video. what is your best time now?

mk

171mph

1:59.6 but with sport cups. watch out mark i'm putting stiffer springs on rear after V.O confirmed the understeer (already at full stiff bar). we might actually have a race this time! looking fwd to it let's hope for no rain

JackOlsen

Drivers need different advice at different points in their development. In IcemanG17's lap, I think it's pretty easy to see where he's not getting full throttle because he's entering corners at speeds he's not yet comfortable committing to. Overcooking entrance speeds is a very common thing for intermediate drivers (and bear in mind: I don't know much about IcemanG17's experience -- I'm making a guess based on his lap times versus what he thinks his car is capable of). But... in the same way you've got to learn to walk before you can run, getting comfortable with early and full throttle in corners is a skill that's got to come before throwing the car into those corners at threshold speeds. At 2:00 with the crow's nest, you're pretty far down the Thunderhill path. Walton and Van Overbeek might not be giving the same advice to someone running 2:30 laps (or 2:15 laps) in a car as quick as yours.

mjb

Very impressive Dave - you're flying into the corners. Must have been a treat getting coaching from VOB.
I'm definitely working on getting the corner entry speed up, especially in the fast corners where it takes ever larger attachments as you ratchet it up.
For me my best times have come from being quick (that is relatively) in the 14 through 2, and 6 through 9 sections. I guess that would make sense, since they're the fastest section of the track.
I'd love to get a copy of your Traqmate file for comparison if it's not proprietary I'll PM you and you let me know.

Mahler9th

This is an interesting thread. Depends on the definition of important of course.

The most important corner is before the longest straight BY DEFINITION for the reasons specified. And assuming the car is a perfect object of physics, behaving the same in all cornering situations. So at thill, that is turn 15. As stated, 14/15 are highly linked, so...

In the real world there are trade-offs.

Of course I have said this many times... telling someone, especially a student to carry more speed in turns like #1 may be less productive than coaching them to focus on exit speed, as indicated in data, for example rpm at a given point.

Cars are not perfect objects of physics of course, so which turn is most important for a car/driver/situation is quite specific. There are too many variables to comment on the internet.... best to work with a real instructor or coach. Or at minimum, productive, informed discussions with other good drivers who are beyond the beginner's stage, at a particular event. And of course experimentation and car tuning. Its too complex to boil down into something simple... why try?

Flat through 6? This is an example of someone that does not know what he/she is talking about. I was at a private event last year at Thill... and caught a so-called instructor telling a group which included a pro driver unfamiliar with Thill that turn #1 was flat. I said it depended on the car, and he said no it didn't. All 5 of those other drivers sought me out in the paddock and we all talked about various issues since I had driven there many times and they had not. They all thanked me for interjecting when I did. I have seen this type of thing many times on the internet and in person. Makes me crazy (obviously).

Tom: Did the car change at all from 2:04 to 1:57? I once went from 2:10 to 2:00 in one session, but the car changed from a 951 to a 911...

mjb

Mahler, you're right on. Don't think anyone could take a non-aero, high HP car (GT3, Z06, Cup, whatever) flat through T1 at 135MHP+.

mark kibort

uh oh! Im in trouble. What did you do? just some mods and kicked up the intensity? Now I got to figure out how to make up a couple of seconds! I guess I better make sure the front view cam is working!

mk

mark kibort

Flat through turn 1. thats really funny! Im at 130mph at the #4 marker, and I dont know the specs of the turn at turn 1, but im sure you would end up with a G loading WELL above the cars capability. as it is, i am on the edge, slowly drifting to the birms with little margin. Not to say I cant hit it a little faster, but flat out is not an option. now, flat through turn 8 is an interesting possiblity for some cars. not mine, but its certainly in the relm of imagination.

Dave was running 2:01s pretty easily before, so its not a huge surprise he is in the :59s now. He might have to come out and race with us. go chase after Rylan in that s2000!

m

171mph

Good point Jack.

Mike i pm'd you.

Mark, oddly enough i'm a little slower with the motons at thill but the new rear springs will help. the 1:59 was stock suspension but with michelin sport cups. i think they are about 1 sec faster around thill than nittos/ra1.

Tom W

Mike: No. The car changed (going from Turtle Mk 2 to Turtle Mk 3 - a weight loss of about 300 lbs) and I drove it like the old car at first. I had to learn that it could go faster in the turns. It was the same when I went from Turtle Mk 1 (stock, 2800 lbs) to Turtle Mk 2 (GTL 2500 lbs). I was thrilled with a 2:08 on my first outing. I learned I could go faster as I kept pushing and by the end of the year was hitting 2:00 (I think Jack and I had a race in there where we were both looking to break 2:00).

Looking at my Traqmate data and the MoTeC data, I'm always a bit surprised by how the times can be very close but the speeds very different (4-5 mph) in different corners. For me, it's now learning to be more consistent in all the corners to get much faster. Rich Walton is about 1 second faster than me on most days in my car. We've spent a bunch of time looking at the data to see why. Toward the end of last year it appeared that it was mostly in T9. I was actually a bit faster in 8 (I use a short lift but no brakes and he still taps the brakes as he's not as used to the car as I am), but in T9 he was consitent (within about 1 mph each lap) while my speeds would vary by up to 5 mph because i would brake too much on entry and not commit to being flat soon enough after turn-in.

I'll be looking through my MoTeC data this weekend as I'm getting a lesson on more advanced data interpretation. I'll see if I can find a few examples to post.