Thoughts on allowing M rated helmets in a DE?
02-02-2009, 11:22 AM
#31
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The SA requirement would be a bit odd, unless you also required a full SFI Nomex suit, gloves, shoes, underwear, balaclava, etc.
My son has 2 Arai GP5's...one is K rated ($500 IIRC), his newest one is SA rated ($1100 IIRC...bought for his FBMW test).
FWIW, I would feel comfortable wearing a K rated helmet for any DE activity, but would eventually expect fully compliant SA helmet and Nomex undergarments/suit/gloves/shoes at a club racing level.
Just out of curiosity, did PCA ban open faced helmets?
My son has 2 Arai GP5's...one is K rated ($500 IIRC), his newest one is SA rated ($1100 IIRC...bought for his FBMW test).
FWIW, I would feel comfortable wearing a K rated helmet for any DE activity, but would eventually expect fully compliant SA helmet and Nomex undergarments/suit/gloves/shoes at a club racing level.
Just out of curiosity, did PCA ban open faced helmets?
02-02-2009, 11:36 AM
#32
Nordschleife Master
Thread Starter
As far as I know, there is no open-face ban.
As far as the full Nomex application, we already have that at the club level and I want to keep this at the DE for purpose of discussion.
As far as the full Nomex application, we already have that at the club level and I want to keep this at the DE for purpose of discussion.
02-02-2009, 11:41 AM
#33
Nordschleife Master
I always went by the rule that M & K helmets were "bump and skid" whereas the SA was rated for "Bump...whack, bump, bump,bumpity-bump....WHACK."
As in:
As in:
02-02-2009, 12:53 PM
#34
Drifting
one idea would be to limit the M helmets for the first 3 events, but then the club would have to keep records of entrants or give everyone a logbook to sign off in tech...
02-02-2009, 01:03 PM
#35
Nordschleife Master
In this case, the risk is minimal. All that has been said is that the two standards are different. There has been no factual information that compares the two standards, so, while there are different standards, they may actually protect to a similar level.
How many people at DEs do you see wearing synthetic materials that will melt and stick to your skin? Hmmm, I think that is more a risk than the helmet issue we are talking about. And yes, I'm guilty of this here in the frigid north.
How many people at DEs do you see wearing synthetic materials that will melt and stick to your skin? Hmmm, I think that is more a risk than the helmet issue we are talking about. And yes, I'm guilty of this here in the frigid north.
02-02-2009, 01:08 PM
#36
Nordschleife Master
Thread Starter
So then our goal should be to EDUCATE the rookie as much about safety then as we do about driving on track. If there was a standard delivery of info across the zones then I think would could specify as much (maybe even break down the level of protection by "tier"). It's funny, my old region would ONLY allow cotton clothing (NO SYNTHETICS or BLENDS), and only allow SA helmets so it obviously varies from region to region and even within each zone.
If one thing, at least we are talking about it so the newbie to DE understands how passionate we are about safety and can hopefully make an informed choice about level of protection and level of risk they are willing to take on.
If one thing, at least we are talking about it so the newbie to DE understands how passionate we are about safety and can hopefully make an informed choice about level of protection and level of risk they are willing to take on.
02-02-2009, 01:18 PM
#37
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02-02-2009, 01:27 PM
#38
Nordschleife Master
It's funny, my old region would ONLY allow cotton clothing (NO SYNTHETICS or BLENDS), and only allow SA helmets so it obviously varies from region to region and even within each zone.
02-02-2009, 03:14 PM
#41
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Perhaps a clarification from the rating body would help this conversation?
Straight off from Snell's Website:
What are the differences between the SA, M and K standards?
The SA standard was designed for competitive auto racing while M standard was for motorcycling and other motorsports. The K standard was released to accommodate helmets used in karting. There are three major differences between them:
The SA standard requires flammability test while the M and K standards do not.
The SA and K standards allow for a narrower visual field than M standard (Some SA and K certified helmets may not be street legal).
The SA and K standards include a rollbar multi impact test while M standard does not.
More info: http://www.smf.org/
I personally think the last sentence is reason enough not to allow M in DE events.
Straight off from Snell's Website:
What are the differences between the SA, M and K standards?
The SA standard was designed for competitive auto racing while M standard was for motorcycling and other motorsports. The K standard was released to accommodate helmets used in karting. There are three major differences between them:
The SA standard requires flammability test while the M and K standards do not.
The SA and K standards allow for a narrower visual field than M standard (Some SA and K certified helmets may not be street legal).
The SA and K standards include a rollbar multi impact test while M standard does not.
More info: http://www.smf.org/
I personally think the last sentence is reason enough not to allow M in DE events.
In this case, the risk is minimal. All that has been said is that the two standards are different. There has been no factual information that compares the two standards, so, while there are different standards, they may actually protect to a similar level.
How many people at DEs do you see wearing synthetic materials that will melt and stick to your skin? Hmmm, I think that is more a risk than the helmet issue we are talking about. And yes, I'm guilty of this here in the frigid north.
How many people at DEs do you see wearing synthetic materials that will melt and stick to your skin? Hmmm, I think that is more a risk than the helmet issue we are talking about. And yes, I'm guilty of this here in the frigid north.
Does an SA helmet in a completely stock car really improve things over an M helmet? From a fire protection standpoint, the car is filled with flammable carpets, etc. And there's no roll cage for your helmet to bang against. Taking it a step further, when the roof crushes in, how do the other safety elements protect you (seats, harnesses/belts)? Why not mandate a fire extinguisher while you're at it?
I think education is the better approach vs legislation. Talk to people about consequences and let them make informed decisions. Otherwise, you'll eventually see all the fun/variety regulated out of it (no R tires, street pads only, etc etc).
02-02-2009, 03:24 PM
#42
Nordschleife Master
Thread Starter
What you're basically considering is the level of club racing preparedness that should be required in DE prepared (or unprepared) cars? Lots of the safety gear that goes in is meant to work together as a system. If you compromise one safety area, you may also be significantly compromising the other safety measures.
Does an SA helmet in a completely stock car really improve things over an M helmet? From a fire protection standpoint, the car is filled with flammable carpets, etc. And there's no roll cage for your helmet to bang against. Taking it a step further, when the roof crushes in, how do the other safety elements protect you (seats, harnesses/belts)? Why not mandate a fire extinguisher while you're at it?
I think education is the better approach vs legislation. Talk to people about consequences and let them make informed decisions. Otherwise, you'll eventually see all the fun/variety regulated out of it (no R tires, street pads only, etc etc).
Does an SA helmet in a completely stock car really improve things over an M helmet? From a fire protection standpoint, the car is filled with flammable carpets, etc. And there's no roll cage for your helmet to bang against. Taking it a step further, when the roof crushes in, how do the other safety elements protect you (seats, harnesses/belts)? Why not mandate a fire extinguisher while you're at it?
I think education is the better approach vs legislation. Talk to people about consequences and let them make informed decisions. Otherwise, you'll eventually see all the fun/variety regulated out of it (no R tires, street pads only, etc etc).
02-02-2009, 03:41 PM
#43
Still plays with cars.
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I agree, Dell and jp. M helmets are probably perfectly adequate for the level of risk at DE. They are also far less expensive than lower volume SA. Our rules also state natural fiber clothing, but it's getting pretty hard to find it these days and nobody checks. I do not advocate making people buy Nomex for DE for the reasons JP stated.
Best,
Best,
02-02-2009, 03:57 PM
#44
Rennlist Member
