How do you honestly know if you........
10-07-2008, 10:42 AM
#76
Lifetime Rennlist Member
Rebound or compression?
Here's my advice, as someone who got into club racing around your age around 8 years ago and made my way into Star Mazda for a race or two...in other words, I've somewhat been in your shoes. You need to spend some time in a car that isn't setup for a Pro. You probably aren't ready for a car that is that hard to drive. At a 2:06 pace, the car probably isn't nearly as scary as it was for you at a 2:11 pace.
If you want to race in front of a crowd, step back into a series where you race your own car and learn about setup. When you are to the point that you can hop out of the car, know what changes to make and then go out on track to evaluate them, you might be ready to step back into a sharing situation with a Pro. Getting comfortable and getting most of the way there in car as "similar" to the on your currently race in 40 minutes shouldn't be that big of a deal to someone with enough experience to be racing in Koni IMO.
Sounds like the case of jumping too early. You'll stunt your progression if you never have the chance to experiment with and learn to setup a car. You'll never get that chance if you're constantly sharing a car with someone who's better than you.
Here's my advice, as someone who got into club racing around your age around 8 years ago and made my way into Star Mazda for a race or two...in other words, I've somewhat been in your shoes. You need to spend some time in a car that isn't setup for a Pro. You probably aren't ready for a car that is that hard to drive. At a 2:06 pace, the car probably isn't nearly as scary as it was for you at a 2:11 pace.
If you want to race in front of a crowd, step back into a series where you race your own car and learn about setup. When you are to the point that you can hop out of the car, know what changes to make and then go out on track to evaluate them, you might be ready to step back into a sharing situation with a Pro. Getting comfortable and getting most of the way there in car as "similar" to the on your currently race in 40 minutes shouldn't be that big of a deal to someone with enough experience to be racing in Koni IMO.
Sounds like the case of jumping too early. You'll stunt your progression if you never have the chance to experiment with and learn to setup a car. You'll never get that chance if you're constantly sharing a car with someone who's better than you.
The best thing anyone did for me was during a test day, I would run a few laps to get comfortable with the car. Then the crew went underneath and made changes. I went out for a few more laps and came back to tell them what they did and what it did to the car. Sometimes they made no change other than rattle some wrenches around. You NEED to learn to feel the car and be able to make setup changes that suit you.
I raced SRF which is pretty tunable. When I moved on, I rented that car to someone who was a very fast DE driver. He had problems racing as his driving skills were way above his racing and setup skills. One race, he insisted on having the same setup as the front runner (and future multi-time national champ). He got that and the car was undrivable for him. He crashed the car.
I don't know your skill level but I am guessing here that you need setup training. A good question to ask yourself is whether you KNOW what the car is doing in each part of each corner when you finish a session. Not whether the car understeers or oversteers in general, but what it does in each corner and each part of each corner. If you do not know this, then you are not paying enough attention to the car and should train yourself to feel this stuff. Then you are ready to really work on setup skills.
Just my 2 cents, and again I don't know your specific skills so I could be way off.
10-07-2008, 10:44 AM
#77
Nordschleife Master
Drew, have you thought about reading Ross Bentley's Speed secrets books? They are very easy reads and a great source of knowledge to LEARN about the car in all aspects.
10-07-2008, 11:04 AM
#78
Rennlist Member
Guys, I know your trying to help, but there are just some essays I dont feel like writing on a forum about exactly where I am. I dont have the kind of setup knowledge that you do or the amount of experience in the sport. BUT, I can tell you exactly what happened from turn in (slow and with gobs of understeer) to throttle (huge push) to corner exit (big oversteer) for every corner on that track. When they changed the shocks in the rear, they made the rebound higher to try to get the front to bite in a little harder and to have the rear come around a little more predictably yet faster (the previous oversteer wasnt quick, but it was very hard to quickly correct it). This setup made most of the slower parts of the track (aka turn 1-6) far better. However, it did make southbend (surprisingly not too much in the esses) VERY hairy (tons of snap oversteer upon full throttle/corner exit). You have to forgive how bunt I am, as its hard to speak about fine points, when there is one that we couldnt even work around (aka the understeer). I had thought that raising the rebound in the back, lowering the compression in front, from a mid front mid rear sway bar setup making the back one level stiffer and the front a level softer would possibly have helped...but they really didnt want to try it. Part of the problem is Cory and I had VERY little time to get the cars mannerisms down and we werent able to really do anything about it.
-Drew
BTW, Im trying to explain my situation a bit rather than being completely defensive...and Im not trying to start a setup thread...but the overall theme is something just was not right with the car. Even if all the cars are "soft" and "wobbly" etc, they werent as bad as our car. Also, that the team was reluctant to try any real sort of changes even just for my or Cory's "amusement" (after being a paying customer). When Cory comes on, what ever he says over-rides anything Im saying, so well let him set things straight when he feels its time to do so.
-Drew
BTW, Im trying to explain my situation a bit rather than being completely defensive...and Im not trying to start a setup thread...but the overall theme is something just was not right with the car. Even if all the cars are "soft" and "wobbly" etc, they werent as bad as our car. Also, that the team was reluctant to try any real sort of changes even just for my or Cory's "amusement" (after being a paying customer). When Cory comes on, what ever he says over-rides anything Im saying, so well let him set things straight when he feels its time to do so.
10-07-2008, 11:50 AM
#79
Race Car
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: With A Manual Transmission
Posts: 4,728
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
Amen to that. Set up is vitally important - you can have a car that is fast that you can't drive and you can have a car that is comfortable and you will be faster in it than the 'fast' car.
The best thing anyone did for me was during a test day, I would run a few laps to get comfortable with the car. Then the crew went underneath and made changes. I went out for a few more laps and came back to tell them what they did and what it did to the car. Sometimes they made no change other than rattle some wrenches around. You NEED to learn to feel the car and be able to make setup changes that suit you.
I raced SRF which is pretty tunable. When I moved on, I rented that car to someone who was a very fast DE driver. He had problems racing as his driving skills were way above his racing and setup skills. One race, he insisted on having the same setup as the front runner (and future multi-time national champ). He got that and the car was undrivable for him. He crashed the car.
I don't know your skill level but I am guessing here that you need setup training. A good question to ask yourself is whether you KNOW what the car is doing in each part of each corner when you finish a session. Not whether the car understeers or oversteers in general, but what it does in each corner and each part of each corner. If you do not know this, then you are not paying enough attention to the car and should train yourself to feel this stuff. Then you are ready to really work on setup skills.
Just my 2 cents, and again I don't know your specific skills so I could be way off.
The best thing anyone did for me was during a test day, I would run a few laps to get comfortable with the car. Then the crew went underneath and made changes. I went out for a few more laps and came back to tell them what they did and what it did to the car. Sometimes they made no change other than rattle some wrenches around. You NEED to learn to feel the car and be able to make setup changes that suit you.
I raced SRF which is pretty tunable. When I moved on, I rented that car to someone who was a very fast DE driver. He had problems racing as his driving skills were way above his racing and setup skills. One race, he insisted on having the same setup as the front runner (and future multi-time national champ). He got that and the car was undrivable for him. He crashed the car.
I don't know your skill level but I am guessing here that you need setup training. A good question to ask yourself is whether you KNOW what the car is doing in each part of each corner when you finish a session. Not whether the car understeers or oversteers in general, but what it does in each corner and each part of each corner. If you do not know this, then you are not paying enough attention to the car and should train yourself to feel this stuff. Then you are ready to really work on setup skills.
Just my 2 cents, and again I don't know your specific skills so I could be way off.
Sounds like some good stuff. I havent raced a lap, but this makes a lot of sense.
10-07-2008, 02:26 PM
#80
Basic Sponsor
Rennlist
Site Sponsor
Rennlist
Site Sponsor
Looks like the post is getting somewhere. As I've thus far learned, and continue to learn, a good driver can get into a car and get the most out of it. A better driver knows the mechanics of setting up a car and can identify what changes can be done to make it better. An even better driver can go fast, perfect the setup and drive the car at full potential by driving "around" the problems a car has. My .02.
__________________
.
The apex of performance, comfort & safety since 2011.
All new racewear available now→ traqgear.com
.
The apex of performance, comfort & safety since 2011.
All new racewear available now→ traqgear.com
10-07-2008, 03:17 PM
#81
Rennlist Member
Hi guys,
Drew is spot on in his description of the car's handling. I have driven a lot of different cars including almost every porsche street model in various degrees of tune and can say for sure that the car was not right and could have handled better. The primary problem is that Ryan never drove the same setup Drew and I drove until the race. Ryan drove on the test day and said the car was ok. Drew and I both had very limited time due to some transmission problems on the first official practice day with what turned out to be a broken car (loose lower control arm). We both had very smiliar complaints about the setup which I think primarily was due to the suspension problem. They reluctantly changed the setup and we all 3 drove the car in the morning practice. We all had the same opinion of the car's handling after the session. It was much better in the slow sections and only really worse in south bend. I thought it was a great starting point. They ran that setup in qualifying and matched the cars best time thus far. Instead of working on the car from there they opted to go back to the setup from the first day for the race. Ryan said after his first stint the car had a slow speed push. Drew agreed after his stint. I drove the middle stint on 2-year old "new" tires which I believe seriously amplified the car's understeer. It was horrible but since I was on unknown tires I can't completely blame the setup. They lowered the front of the car and adjusted the rear rebound during a pit stop and the car was better for Ryan and Drew's final stints. They both again agreed on the handling description.
There is a lot of good info from guys in this thread. This particular situation was very unique.
Drew is spot on in his description of the car's handling. I have driven a lot of different cars including almost every porsche street model in various degrees of tune and can say for sure that the car was not right and could have handled better. The primary problem is that Ryan never drove the same setup Drew and I drove until the race. Ryan drove on the test day and said the car was ok. Drew and I both had very limited time due to some transmission problems on the first official practice day with what turned out to be a broken car (loose lower control arm). We both had very smiliar complaints about the setup which I think primarily was due to the suspension problem. They reluctantly changed the setup and we all 3 drove the car in the morning practice. We all had the same opinion of the car's handling after the session. It was much better in the slow sections and only really worse in south bend. I thought it was a great starting point. They ran that setup in qualifying and matched the cars best time thus far. Instead of working on the car from there they opted to go back to the setup from the first day for the race. Ryan said after his first stint the car had a slow speed push. Drew agreed after his stint. I drove the middle stint on 2-year old "new" tires which I believe seriously amplified the car's understeer. It was horrible but since I was on unknown tires I can't completely blame the setup. They lowered the front of the car and adjusted the rear rebound during a pit stop and the car was better for Ryan and Drew's final stints. They both again agreed on the handling description.
There is a lot of good info from guys in this thread. This particular situation was very unique.
10-07-2008, 03:53 PM
#82
Rennlist Member
Hi guys,
Drew is spot on in his description of the car's handling. I have driven a lot of different cars including almost every porsche street model in various degrees of tune and can say for sure that the car was not right and could have handled better. The primary problem is that Ryan never drove the same setup Drew and I drove until the race. Ryan drove on the test day and said the car was ok. Drew and I both had very limited time due to some transmission problems on the first official practice day with what turned out to be a broken car (loose lower control arm). We both had very smiliar complaints about the setup which I think primarily was due to the suspension problem. They reluctantly changed the setup and we all 3 drove the car in the morning practice. We all had the same opinion of the car's handling after the session. It was much better in the slow sections and only really worse in south bend. I thought it was a great starting point. They ran that setup in qualifying and matched the cars best time thus far. Instead of working on the car from there they opted to go back to the setup from the first day for the race. Ryan said after his first stint the car had a slow speed push. Drew agreed after his stint. I drove the middle stint on 2-year old "new" tires which I believe seriously amplified the car's understeer. It was horrible but since I was on unknown tires I can't completely blame the setup. They lowered the front of the car and adjusted the rear rebound during a pit stop and the car was better for Ryan and Drew's final stints. They both again agreed on the handling description.
There is a lot of good info from guys in this thread. This particular situation was very unique.
Drew is spot on in his description of the car's handling. I have driven a lot of different cars including almost every porsche street model in various degrees of tune and can say for sure that the car was not right and could have handled better. The primary problem is that Ryan never drove the same setup Drew and I drove until the race. Ryan drove on the test day and said the car was ok. Drew and I both had very limited time due to some transmission problems on the first official practice day with what turned out to be a broken car (loose lower control arm). We both had very smiliar complaints about the setup which I think primarily was due to the suspension problem. They reluctantly changed the setup and we all 3 drove the car in the morning practice. We all had the same opinion of the car's handling after the session. It was much better in the slow sections and only really worse in south bend. I thought it was a great starting point. They ran that setup in qualifying and matched the cars best time thus far. Instead of working on the car from there they opted to go back to the setup from the first day for the race. Ryan said after his first stint the car had a slow speed push. Drew agreed after his stint. I drove the middle stint on 2-year old "new" tires which I believe seriously amplified the car's understeer. It was horrible but since I was on unknown tires I can't completely blame the setup. They lowered the front of the car and adjusted the rear rebound during a pit stop and the car was better for Ryan and Drew's final stints. They both again agreed on the handling description.
There is a lot of good info from guys in this thread. This particular situation was very unique.
...which takes us back to post #52 from yours truly in this thread:
https://rennlist.com/forums/showpost...3&postcount=52
